How to Do AI Right in Public Transport | Renée Touzin (#050)
Chapters:
- Introduction and Episode Highlights [00:00]
- Renée Touzin’s Journey and the Story of GIRO [02:19]
- Why Public Transport Planning Is Getting More Complex [07:19]
- AI and Smarter Transit Scheduling [10:28]
- Autonomous Buses: Will We Still Need Operators? [16:30]
- Electric Bus Planning, Charging and Fleet Size [19:11]
- Global Transit Trends, Driver Scheduling and Data [24:25]
- Human-Centred Technology and Leadership at GIRO [31:58]
- Attracting Talent and Supporting Women in Tech [41:55]
- The Future of Public Transport and Rapid Fire [45:27]
Complete Transcripts:
Read Full Transcript
I’m very happy actually to see AI having all that buzz in the public transit sector because for us, we’ve always been focused on efficiency and AI, it’s the sea of efficiency.
Welcome To the Mobility Innovators Podcast.
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Mobility Innovator Podcast.
I’m your host, Jaspal Singh. On this podcast, we bring you conversation with leader shaping the future of mobility and transportation across the world. Today we are heading to Montreal, one of the most innovative and technology-driven city in the world. The city is also recognized as one of the world’s premier artificial intelligence hubs.
Our today guest is president and CEO of GIRO, a technology company based in Montreal. She has spent more than 24 years at GIRO and became president and CEO of the company in January 2024. She joined the company after earning a master degree in computer science and operation research from University of Montreal. Her path include role as a business analyst, project manager, executive, and now the CEO. Our discussion will focus on three big mobility themes- operational complexity, energy transition, and human center optimization.
I’m so happy to welcome Rene Tuzan, president and CEO of GIRO. It’s now time to listen and learn. Hello, Rene. Welcome to the podcast. It’s great to have you here. Hi,
Jaspal. I’m very happy to join you on that podcast today.
Thank you so much for taking time out during this summer period. And I want to start with, especially with your professional journey so far, which is quite interesting. I was checking your LinkedIn profile and I must say it one of the cleanest one because you have just one company there for 24 years. Basically after studying mathematics and operational research and then you’re teaching job computer science, you actually joined GIRO in 2002 as an application analyst. And over the period you did different role on delivery, leadership, executive management, and now you’re the president and CEO, top of the boss.
So you started just as analyst and now you’re the boss of the company. So not many people stay that long, honestly. I sometimes wonder what keep people long in that job for so much time. What pulled you first into public transportation and what keep you interested in all these years?
Because I know working on the same problem for 24 years is not easy unless you really love it.
Well, it’s a big question, but I think to start with, I would say that for me, what brought me into the public transit or the tech industry is that from a really young age, I was interested in math, in computer science, in the puzzles, problem solving. So that’s really what got me into at the university in math and computer science. And then I started working at GIRO because GIRO is well known, I would say, at the university I studied. And I started there, as you said, as a developer, as an analyst, and along the way I’ve had different role. But I think one thing you said that I do not agree is that it’s not always the same thing. It’s always different. I had the chance to work with clients in, I don’t know how many countries, but maybe 20 different countries. The problems might be similar, but they’re always different and there’s always something else that you have to work on and that’s interesting for me.
Renée Touzin ([04:26]):
So that’s what I would say kept me at GIRO all those years, always the new challenges, new people to meet. And I would say I’m not so much unique at GIRO. We have a lot of people like me that have been in the business for 25, 30, 35 years. So I’m just one of many, I would say One of many.
I know GIRO is quite popular among university students. It was one of the big brand. And like GIRO in UITP also, we have people working for 35, 40 years and we sometimes they started their career at the company and they retired at the company. And like I said, you need to really love, like you said, the problem may look same, but when you work with different client, different country, it’s very different. Like you said, GIRO is very popular with the college students in Montreal. It’s one of the big brand. What is GIRO all about? This is a global podcast, so I want you to share a little bit about the organization. When was the company founded, who founded it, and what problem is GIRO solving?
Okay. Well, to start, GIRO was founded in 1979 by two people. So it was a university professor and its student, it was a master’s student. And then it was really, they were working on a small problem at the time, which was crew scheduling and optimization of the crew scheduling. So that’s really how it started. And they started working with clients here in the province of Quebec, in Montreal, in Quebec. And then later on and really soon after they had clients around the world. So we had clients in the US, in Europe, in Singapore, in Australia. In the first 10 years, we already had clients a bit everywhere.
Renée Touzin ([06:20]):
And I think it made the solution super flexible because the fact that you are already working with different requirements, different constraints means that you have to have a software that is really flexible. The software, what it does is it’s for planning, scheduling, and daily operation. And at the core of what we do is optimization. So in the past it was operational research. That’s really how it started. Nowadays it also includes AI because efficiency and the seek for efficiency. Today, we have almost 700 employees, all mostly based in Montreal, in Canada. However, we have local people in different place in the world and we have clients in more than 30 countries.
It’s very interesting. You said it started in 1979 and within 10 year it became global. At that time, the planning and scheduling and optimization were not that popular. People were still working on paper, pen and paper. So you actually saw the era when people were working pen and paper. So a little interesting, I know GIRO is one of the few companies which is very focused on planning and scheduling. You didn’t ever try to expand yourself into too many different things and you remain focused on your core. And planning and scheduling is generally which people don’t see. If you ask passengers on the street, what is GIRO? They may never heard about the company, even though you are 700 employee, very big in Montreal. But if you ask the people on day-to-day basis, they have probably no clue because you’re working in the backside, never on the front side.
Jaspal Singh ([08:06]):
Why you think you should remain focused on planning and scheduling and why it is becoming more and more complex in coming days? Why you think with technology actually evolving, the scheduling planning is becoming complex, not simpler?
Well, if I answer the first part of your question, why did we stay focused on planning and scheduling? And I would say also daily operation now is we could have decided in the past to really have this with this expertise and optimization to go into different business. But for us, we want to be more than just a software provider. We want to work closely with our clients and know what we are talking about. And even myself, sometimes I had to meet clients and I would say, “Oh, are you sure this is the rule? Because I think it might be different. It might be like that.” And it was, “Oh yeah, you’re right.” Because I had been working on this similar rule or collective agreement elsewhere and I knew about it. So that’s the first reason why we really stayed focused. Now, why is it becoming more challenging?
Renée Touzin ([09:19]):
I think there’s different things. Every decade will bring a different challenge, but today I would say it’s probably founding. There’s money issue where it’s a challenge with the ridership decrease with the pandemic and many cities are not at even the same level as pre-pandemic. So for sure that’s a constraint they have. Electric vehicle added another layer of constraint to the mix. And it’s a huge subject where you have to really look at how to plan and how to operate it. It’s many, many things you have to think about. There was a workforce shortage on top of that where people, they want to have work and life balance and the public expectation is not decreasing with all of this. They still want to have the best public transit in the end. So I think all of this means that it’s why today I would say in this decade, this is really challenging.
Yeah, all this point you mentioned, and we will actually cover a little bit more in detail about workforce challenges, pandemic ridership falling, funding, financing issue and all. You said something very interesting. You said every decade has something new challenge. And I would say this decade has new opportunity with artificial intelligence and machine learning, which was not there. I mean, 5 years back we were worried about pandemic, world will stop, everything will finish. Fast-forward five year, now everybody’s talking about artificial intelligence, generative AI and all those kind of stuff. How do you see AI is changing zero and public sector, public transport sector overall? Like you said, you want to stay focused, but at the same time you need to catch a pace with the external changes. So what are you doing?
Well, I would say I’m very happy actually to see AI having all that buzz in the public transit sector because for us, we’ve always been focused on efficiency and AI, it’s the seek of efficiency. It’s just, well, just maybe is a small word, but it’s another tool in the toolbox in order to achieve better schedule, better balance for everybody. So I think with AI, yes, it will transform things. It will add a lot of data. New application will come out of it. So it might be like an assistant, which is the obvious solution, but in the end you can do even better things like absenteeism forecast or other practical innovation that maybe with operational research was more difficult to achieve. So for me, it’s another tool in the toolbox and that will be great. And I’m happy to see that all the agencies, they see that, oh, we have to be better and we have to look for better solutions. So for me, it’s just the best.
That’s very true. I talked to a lot of agency, even within our organization. Now we see not AI just as a tool, but more as a tool for driving efficiency in the organization. Hey, what can we do more now with the same resource? Or do we need to put same resources with the technology? Earlier it was like, okay, you bring more and more stuff, but you don’t question about efficiency. But you rightly said now with AI, at least people are now start talking about it. And one of the critical area all the agencies are facing, like you mentioned about manpower issue, it’s a lot of silver tsunami happened. A lot of people left the sector during the COVID and pandemic, so there is a shortage of driver. And then now it’s difficult to fill the role. And I know GIRO is working that part also.
Jaspal Singh ([13:11]):
The new driver doesn’t get the good duties. They get very bad roasters and GIRO is very vocal about, “Hey, you should automate, you should let the technology or the algorithm decide who should get not the ranking, not the service level.” And the cost pressure is also there. Agencies want to reduce costs, they want to reduce service. They don’t have same number of passenger, but at the same time they can’t throw away those buses. So they want to see how to reduce. So from GIRO perspective, what does a good schedule look like from perspective agency or driver passenger? Because passenger want more service, driver want best route and best timing of the day. Agency want more money or serving the better area. How do you marry all these three component together?
Well, I agree with you. It’s three people are in three corners. We have the drivers on one and they want the more breaks maybe, a better work balance in general, better schedules for them. And then you have the passengers and they want to have reliable schedule on time and smooth connection and all of this. And then you have the agency and they want to have efficiency in general. So they want to provide a service for sure, but in a cost effective way. So I would say a good schedule is one that will balance and try to address those three. I mean, sometimes they are opposite. So it’s impossible really to say, we’ll achieve all of three at the same time, but it’s a balance. A good schedule and a good tool will enable you to put different weight on what you want to work on and have different scenarios so that you can have a look at it with different perspective and say, oh yeah, this one is better with this and this one is better with that.
Renée Touzin ([15:01]):
And that way you can work with the different people on different angles and try to see what is the best in that situation because maybe the best schedule today is maybe not the best schedule tomorrow. So You really have those, what is happening today makes a schedule, maybe this is the best, but it might change.
It might change. And this is what I think agencies are a little bit behind. A lot of time they don’t change the schedule very often and they keep the same schedule and the network design never changed for 40, 50 years, whereas the passenger have moved away.
Yes. I think you have to adapt quickly in order to not stay in the current situation that might maybe again, the schedule you produce or you have was the best two years ago, five years ago, I don’t know. But today with giving the other constraints that are different, maybe it’s not the best anymore. So you need to be reactive and be able to adapt quickly.
And like you said earlier about efficiency, so probably they need to look at what is more efficient at this moment, not about what was last year or last month or last week, but what schedule is more efficient to perform this particular moment or this particular day and where GIRO can really help.
Jaspal Singh ([16:30]):
Now, a lot of people say we are in the technology era and autonomous vehicles are here. I mean, I tried vehicle in San Francisco, LA, in South Korea, in China. Its technology is ready. Somewhat, I would say 90% or 95% is ready. And people feel like once the autonomous vehicle will be there, a lot of our problem will go away. We don’t need drivers. The vehicle can run 24 hours. You don’t need to plan any schedule. Everything will be kind of operated in a way. What do you think? I mean, I think right now people are too optimistic about autonomic gaining and expansion of autonomous vehicle. What do you think from GIRO perspective, will the planning scheduling still be relevant and how do you see the future of autonomous vehicles with public transport?
I think that for every problem, the first 90% is usually the easiest and then the last 10% is quite difficult. So we might see bus that are fully automatic, but maybe not so soon as some people are optimistic about, but we’ll see. But still I believe that we might still need operator in the future, maybe not for driving buses, but it could be for security reason, it could be for other type of reason that they might be. So in the end, it doesn’t mean that we’re getting rid completely of the crew on board. As with other problems, sometimes other technology arrive and then something else arise. Electric vehicle is one good example where it improves the quality of air and everything, but on the other end, it makes the scheduling and the planning and the operation of those vehicle, it has other constraint to it. So even though sometimes we believe that technology will solve everything, there might be, and as I said, every decade brings other challenges.
Renée Touzin ([18:41]):
So I’m not sure we will resolve everything. I think one challenge goes away and another challenge arise. So basically we will create new problems with the new solutions. I think so.
And on our side, we love every situation that forces us to really think about and be in a problem resolution mind and say, oh, how do we solve that? And that’s great. We love those situations.
That’s amazing. Like you said, the crew will be still there and probably you need to then still plan and schedule the vehicles. You need to see how to bring more efficiency. Again, I come back to the efficiency point, but how those vehicle can be run more efficiently. You talk about electrification and it’s a town which was very popular in some region. Some region is not any popular anymore because of the current condition, but I think electrification is still happening in many part of the world. And what I see is many agencies which initially think about electrification, they just think about procurement and infrastructure. They never talk about operation. Their major issue is like, “Hey, I need depot, I need charging space, I need charging infrastructure,” but they never talk about how will I run the operation once the vehicle will be there? Why do you think the agency should think about scheduling and optimization as well as infrastructure from day one?
Jaspal Singh ([20:00]):
Why they think operation is not important and what kind of challenge you are seeing they are facing now?
I agree that they should think about it from the beginning, and it’s true that the big decisions they need to make is where will you have the charging station? How will you organize your depot? How many chargers do you need and all of this? And which brand of vehicle will you buy? So you have to make all of those decisions, but those decisions or those decisions will impact the scheduling or the scheduling could impact this. So I think, and this is something we have done with clients in the past. One client, it was two years ago, so it was more or less the beginning of electric vehicle. It was a client in Europe and they needed to buy certain amount of vehicles. It was not only two or three, it was in more than 30, I would say. They came to the office with the spec of the vehicles, the different brand they wanted to buy.
Renée Touzin ([21:07]):
And then we worked on simulation on optimization to see, okay, with this brand, it means that you need to have the chargers over there and maybe more chargers, less vehicles. There were different results and with that, they were able to make better decisions in order to decide which brand of buses they were buying. So for them, it was already something helpful to make battery decisions. So I think people should not ignore the fact that one day you’ll need to operate and schedule those vehicles.
And it’s very interesting what you said about even before procurement, they need to think about their plan. It’s not even when they float the tender, but even floating the tender, they need to think about which kind of buses and how many buses I need and all. And this is one of the challenge I see because a lot of agencies when I talk to them, they say we have hundred diesel buses and we need hundred electric buses. The thing, it’s a replacement of one is to one, which some cases it is possible, I think with better optimization and all, but some cases I saw they have to buy 1.5. So actually they have to buy 150 electric buses to replace 100 buses. What do you think kind of common mistake these agencies are making when they plan their operation? Like you mentioned about your example in Europe, and I know GIRO also worked with BC Transit and it was a case study you guys also published.
I’m very curious to learn how did you help BC Transit to plan their fleet?
Well, I think one mistake would say there’s a one formula for every agency. So it’s a multiplicator by 10% or 5% or 0%, and it’s the same for everybody. That’s not true. So I would say that would be the mistake. I think it depends on a few things. It depends on obviously the type of vehicle, the range of the vehicle, where you will have your charger. So that’s one thing. The other thing it depends on is on your service. What kind of curve of service do you have? So if you have a curve with a lot of traffic in the morning and really tiny peak and then it drops a lot, you have a lot of opportunity to go charge your vehicle after the morning and be back in action for later in the day. So probably in that case, you don’t need as many or maybe not even more vehicle. But if you have really a flat curve of service, that might be more difficult to keep the one-and-one ratio. So that’s really something we have worked with DC Transit in order to determine how many more if the vehicles would be need in that situation.
Renée Touzin ([24:02]):
It’s really different from one client to another, from one garage to another, it’s different. So there’s no magic formula for everybody.
So it’s not like agency think 10% more and they just go for 10% more, like you said garage by garage.
I agree. I agree. I think there’s no formula. That’s the mistake I would say people sometimes –
You have to study each and every route and you need to study your operation and demand and accordingly you need to do that. Now, it’s very interesting what you said, you work with these agencies and you mentioned zero was international from day one. Within 10 years you were in 10 countries and now you’re more than 20 countries around the world and serving members and serving all these operators around the world. So you must have a good global oversight and sometime you’re telling people, “Hey, you shouldn’t do this way and you should do this way.” I don’t know how much they listen because sometimes they feel like, “Why are you telling us instead of me telling you?” What are the key things you are observing happening around the world right now in term of public transportation, how the agencies are looking? You mentioned some of the challenges, but in term of opportunity, what are the key trend you see will emerge in next 5- 10 years?
Well, I think we’ve touched a few things, but what is interesting by being global is that we see, as you said, we see different things, the similar things, but sometimes not at the same pace. So that gives us the opportunity to work maybe on a new subject with one client, one country, and then be able to export that innovation elsewhere in the world. So that’s one thing. EV, electric vehicle is one topic. We have seen it’s a trend. It might not be at the same pace everywhere nowadays, but still I think we learned from it and now it’s more mainstream, I would say. In many places, it’s just the normality, it’s to have electric vehicle. Workforce shortage is something else we see. It’s a global thing. We see it everywhere. The thing I think they don’t necessarily address it in the same way or try to come up with ideas in the same way.
Renée Touzin ([26:18]):
So having work and life balance is something you can try maybe on a daily basis to have a nice schedule, but on a month or during the year, that’s something we have been working closely with some of our clients a lot in Europe where the drivers have kind of a say in what they want as the type of work for the next month. Obviously, if nobody likes night work, we still have to do it. But the idea is that maybe some people really like night work and maybe some are not. And it’s a mix of preferences that people, the drivers, they can put and equity as a fair share at the same time. So it’s not seniority based, it’s really based on a mix of you get a bit of night and then you get a bit of morning, but maybe you get the night, the week or the days you said would be better for you.
Renée Touzin ([27:28]):
So in the end, they still get more what they’re looking for. So that’s another trend we’re seeing elsewhere in many places in the world. We see AI and we’ve mentioned that in the way it changes and maybe the way some organization are thinking more and more about efficiency as opposed to the past where it was not so much of a topic, now I think it opens the discussion about efficiency and just finding the right tool for the right challenge they have as an organization. So that’s something we see and that we’re very happy to see as well.
That’s very interesting. And I think what you said, the similar things that are happening around the world, but at a different pace. Some are moving much faster and some are moving slower and trying to catch up and all. And the point you mentioned about AI and digitalization, and that’s what also we see, many agencies are now forcing. After pandemic, most of them went to cashless transaction because nobody want to touch cash at that time. So they kind of start doing cashless transactions. But what happened with all this digitalization, now you’re getting much more data, which you are not getting earlier. Now you’re getting, like you said about roasting, now they’re getting data about the preferences, why people don’t want to go to that particular route or schedule what is going wrong. So a lot of data is being collected and you must be seeing a lot of agencies are collecting these kind of data.
Jaspal Singh ([29:06]):
How do you see they’re using it? Do you see agencies are getting more equipped to use these kind of data or not? Especially now with, I was talking to one of my colleague and she said, “Hey, I don’t do anything and now I just dumped my data in ChatGPT and asked, Hey, just prepare some nice graphic and analysis and all. So do you think with now generative AI, people are actually more aware about data or you still see they’re still far behind using the data?
No, we see a willingness to use and have access to more data. So that’s something we see, but with the data you have to understand, you have to go deep at what does it mean? What does it tell you? And you need to use it afterwards. And I would say that’s the biggest challenge is that you have to be willing You maybe listen to the data and take action in order to change maybe the schedules, the planning or whatever comes out of the data, there needs to be that. So having access to the data, I would say is the easy part. Understanding what it means and then taking action is really where we see that it’s taking a bit more time in order to take the full benefits of the data.
That’s true. That’s true. It’s not just analysis, it’s like what it can have impact on the operation and having those understanding is very important. And is Jira is doing something about that? When you see a lot of data from scheduling and routing and all, and when you take back to the agency, do you try to explain to them or you just give it to them and say, “Hey guys, you decide.” How do you work with the company? You mentioned something very interesting. You don’t see them as a client, you work as a partner and you work with them to improve their operation. So how do you work with data with them?
Well, be it data or classical optimization, I would say, because AI is newer, but in general we will not tell them what to do exactly, but we will say, “Oh, you should maybe focus on that or we’ve seen that or we’ve seen that elsewhere.” But it depends. It’s up to them in the end to make the best decision for their organization. But we really try to bring the expertise that we’ve built over the years by working with clients in so many countries and tell them, “We’ve seen that, so maybe you could try this or we could try it together.” But in the end, for sure it’s their decision to do it.
No, I agree. And sometime, like I said, when you try to give too much of advice, they feel like, “Why are you giving me advice?” So it’s important to dump them and then just let them know what are the pros and cons and let them decide. Now you mentioned something very interesting, which is how GIRO is building the software. And I know GIRO is a very technical company. You guys are very focused on the technical stuff. The people who are working on the software, they’re not running the system. Like I mentioned in the beginning, your software is in the backend, not in the front end. So probably employee doesn’t, like the thing you mentioned about algorithm and optimization, the driver duty change, changing from their one day night shift to another, it’s a huge change for them. For software, it’s just a one plot.
Jaspal Singh ([32:43]):
I change from one slot here to there, but for people it can be huge change. And a lot of these agencies are dealing with the public service. So how do you make sure your staff member or your employee at the GIRO understand complexity of the outer world? They connect with the human side of the software. It’s not just the software, it’s not just optimizing thing on the paper. Like you rightly said, you ask driver, “Hey, you need to do night shift probably not on weekend, but you can do on weekdays and then we can take your preference and all.” How do you make sure the organization and the staff and the people who are working on such a technical stuff are connected to the human side of the software and the human purpose of the software?
It’s a very good question. I think I would say first thing is that a lot of people at GIRO, we start from being a developer and analyst, a business analyst. So that means that for many, many years we’re in contact with our clients. And almost 40% of our workforce is working closely day to day with our clients. And we go, we visit them, we have conferences with them. We have all those activities. That means that we understand what their challenges are, what their day-to-day life is. And that’s how we keep grounded. And even after that, even myself, I’m not doing the software anymore, working or coding or doing trainings anymore, but I still visit clients. I still go there and I try to understand what were the challenges with the product, when they went live or all of those things. And that’s super important. And I was at a client site recently.
Renée Touzin ([34:31]):
At the beginning of June, I was in Scotland to visit Lothian buses and they went in production with our daily system really recently. And I was there live in the depot with them looking at how they’re using it. And for me, it’s important. I’m still doing it and I expect other people doing the same. So that’s how we keep connected. Our software has an impact on the people using it. So that’s one bunch of people that are impacted by our software, but also the drivers that are.
Even the passenger, the one change in the one timing have a big impact on the person as well. No, that’s very interesting. As a leader, you’re going on the site and being there for the deployment, not sitting in your. I assuming I have visited GIRO office, which is very nice in the nice cabin, but it’s very important to go out. Now I want to discuss a little bit about your leadership philosophy because like I mentioned in the beginning, you’re working in the organization for 34 years, started as an analyst and now reached to this level. You work in different across the level. You experience client side, you experience business side, you experienced the technical side of it. But out of different role, which role shape your leadership the most? Is it more from the backend, technical side or client side? If I ask you, hey Renee, what role was most important for you to be as a leader now what you are as a CEO?
I would say it’s business analyst. It’s probably the role that I had the longest and I really liked that. It was a role I was close to the clients. I was able to visit many clients. I was working sometimes on 10 different projects all at the same times, maybe during the year, not all at the same time. And I was really close to the clients and I could see everything they needed out of the system. And for many years there was one project actually that I worked on and I still have the specification document of that client in my office today. It’s still there. We’ll be there until I leave the company because it reminds me of that project. That project was really challenging and I spent many days, nights, weekend working on that and it reminds me, but in the end it worked. In the end, I put my mind out to it and it worked and it has been working for a long time and that shaped me into understanding, okay, what’s the problem?
Renée Touzin ([37:13]):
Why do you want this? What’s the solution? How do you make sure it’s sustainable and that you’re not just patching something and it’s really foolproof 30-60? So that’s really something I keep in mind for even today when I’m looking at a problem, oh, what would the Renee of that year do looking at this other puzzle that she had?
That’s nice to hear. You are still holding the specification here off. It showed you were really connected with that project. You were really putting your heart and soul into it. And there are these moments which shape up you as a leader. So all the business analysts in GIRO should feel happy. They have a future to become a CEO in future. Now, transit sector is a hard place and I feel very sympathetic or empathetic for the transit CEO because I know the job is very hard, but I feel even the transit tech business is harder. GIRO is a company serving the industry. You need to serve the existing customer, you need to serve their demand, and some of them are legacy system, old system, and then you need to think about future. You need to move forward in the future. As a leader, how you’re balancing between serving the existing market and looking forward the future?
Jaspal Singh ([38:29]):
When you became a CEO in 2024, did you come and say, “Hey, we need to change hundred things,” or you said, “Okay, let’s continue.” What shape up you in last two years as a CEO and what are you focusing more? Is it maintain what we are doing or think about the future?
Well, for sure we’re always looking at the future. So that’s something in our company that we’ve always been focused. We’re looking at the future and I was looking at the future even before I was a CEO as a VP for a few years in the company. So for us and the fact that with AI, but technology, it’s always evolving. It’s always changing. And recently we had a presentation at the office and we asked two people that were there 25 years ago to tell us about how it was when they went from Dust System to Windows.
Renée Touzin ([39:27]):
And for them it was big, big, big, big challenge. And today it’s not that anymore, it’s AI. So we continue with that. Our system is evolving, is adding new things and new things. But the fact that our clients, they also rely on us to maintain what is they have today, which is critical so that it’s still working. But on top, we also add new technology all the time. So we’re still focused on that. So it’s a bit on continuity, but looking at the future. So it’s not continuity. We continue with what we have today. No, continuity and evolving innovation all the time for the future years.
That’s very important. And like you mentioned, even before becoming CEO, you had a good insight about what happening, and then you have a lot of these idea now as a CEO, you can implement and take it forward. And GIRO is growing now. I mean, you guys become a hundred million club in 2024, which is a big success. Congratulations. I know it must be much bigger now. What do you see next 10 years look like for GIRO? Is it like $200 million club or is it most innovative company in Canada or in the world? What do you want your legacy?
Well, actually at Zero, we’re not so much focused on trying to say, “Oh, we want to reach that target of 100, 200, 300.” It’s never been like that. Now, yes, we have revenue over a hundred millions, but our focus has always been on innovation with our clients to make sure that they remain with us. We always provide them with better and better solution, better tools, and also great projects for the people working in the office. So that’s always something that we are looking for because for me as a person who has worked on those projects, it’s always interesting to say, oh, a new client, a new challenges, different ways of working. So that’s for sure, we’re looking for that as well. So new innovation and new clients, well, in the end, it means more revenue, but never the main thing at the front of what we’re working on.
That’s very important to stay focused on what you’re delivering, not on the numbers. Numbers will come if you stay focused. Like you said, when my daughter was running in the race, she was just looking at other people. I said, “Focus on your running. Forget about other, otherwise you will never win.” That’s a very important point. Now, one question I’m very curious to ask you, because like you said, you’re becoming bigger, you have 700 employees, and many of them will be young and with the technology change, you need to recruit new people. How are you competing with some other technology company? Now AI companies coming with huge amount of funding. I know Montreal is one of the big hub. How are you managed to attract talent and bring them in GIRO? Because I think for GIRO, one of the biggest success is the people, the talent.
Jaspal Singh ([42:37]):
How do you manage to attract the right talent to the company?
I think we attract them in different ways. So the first thing I would say is the type of work we do. We are in tech, but in public transit as well, and that’s super popular with the young generation, so it’s a sustainable type of work. So that’s super interesting. The type of work we do as well, problem solving or puzzles, that’s really interesting as well. We reach clients in 30 countries, so the impact you have when you work on our software today, it’s used in so many places and you say, “Okay, go travel and you’ll take public transit and probably you’ll be in a bus or in a tram or in a train.” That has been scheduled with Hastus. I think those are the main factors, I think, how we attract people specifically here in Montreal.
That’s rightly said. People love tech plus sustainability like public transport and the new challenge and global factor is like a flavor. It’s like people can travel and people can see the things outside and all. And one of the key thing is how to attract more women in the technology space and public transport space. And this is one of the challenge from UITP we always talk about. As a woman leading a major Quebec technology company in a global mobility space, I would say it’s a big company, what leadership lesson would you share with people coming up, especially young women in the sector? What will you tell them why they should choose this sector?
Well, I would say the first thing is yes, I’m a woman in technology and at GIRO, and I had the chance in the company that there were other women, maybe not CEO in the company, but there were other women that had a high VP or different roles that were mentor for me, that were role models. So I think that’s the good thing. And today I try to be one of many again. What I would tell the young generation of women or even men, raise your hand. Don’t be shy. Take the opportunity. When I was a business analyst, any trip there was, any projects, I would say, “I’m going to do it. I’ll go there.” I was always willing and I would learn along the way. I would sometimes learn lesson along the way, but it was always good learning. I grew as a better person, as a better business analyst, a better employee in the end by taking all the opportunities that were available for me at the time.
Renée Touzin ([45:24]):
I would say that’s the best advice I would give them.
It’s a right advice. I tell my team member, if you’re not making mistake, you’re not doing things because if you’re making mistake, it means you’re trying to do something. And like you said, raising your hand for things you don’t know or you’re not sure about. But if you feel shy and not raising hand, you will let those opportunity. Very right.
Thank you so much, Renée. So this is my last question. How do you see the future of public transport? I mean, what is the one assumption about public transport innovation that you think need to be challenged? What one thing for sure we need to change in coming days and how you think 2040 or 2050, the future look like? Will we have sky cars or will we have flying drones? What do you think? What is your imagination?
Well, I think one thing that should be challenged is that one of innovation will solve everything, that we will find a magic button and everything will be great after that. I think it will not happen. So I think innovation will help to solve innovation. It’s an accelerator for solving, for helping, for giving insight. But in the end, you need to embrace the change in order to go forward with what the technology or the innovation are telling you with the people. But I hope for the future that we’ll have an even better balance between the operators, the agency, the riders, and that everybody can have the best out of public transit in the future.
That’s very nice of you. You’re still thinking about the passenger and the drivers and the agency. I really like what you said. It’s wrong assumption to think one innovation will solve all the problem. There will be new problem, and also you need different innovation to solving the different problem. Not one solution can fit for all, and that’s very important. When sometime people think like, “Hey, I’ll just implement AI and all my agency problem will go away,” no, that’s not the case. It’s just can solve one problem, what do you want? That’s very right. Thank you so much, Renee, for spending time. It’s a great conversation. Really enjoyed. Generally, we end this podcast with a rapid fire round and ask a little bit about your personal side of it. So if you’re ready, we can start with the rapid fire.
I’m ready.
Okay. So let’s say if you are not in the mobility or technology space, what might you be doing?
If it’s not technology. Well, anything related to problem solving. So that would be related to that. I like a good puzzle, any type, so that would be related to this. So
Basically anything related to the problem solving. Okay. Your favorite city apart from Montreal. I know it’s one of the best city in the world, but any city which is as beautiful, and why you like that city?
I would say Vancouver. Vancouver is special in my heart because I had the chance to spend many summer there when I was a kid or a teenager. And on top of that, it has the mountains, it has the sea, and it has good public transit. So what else do you have for?
That’s true. They have one of the good public transit system in North America. TransLink is doing amazing work. A book or idea that has influenced your thinking. I know the role as a business analyst, but beside that, a book or an idea that really shape up your thinking?
It’s maybe more an idea or a philosophy. I had the chance to work with someone, and for that person, the path was not so much important. It was understanding the why. The why you have this, go deeper at the bottom of the question, make sure you perfectly understand the outcome. So the why is important, is more important than the how. The how is, in the end, it works. That’s the best you want to have.
That’s amazing. That’s amazing process to keep moving forward, and it’s not about stuck with the part, but it’s like why we need to do this. Now, one thing do you wish you should have learned early in life, either professional or personal?
German.
German.
Renée Touzin ([49:45]):
I’m trying to learn German today. It’s been three years now and it’s really challenging. I would’ve hoped maybe learning it as a teenager would’ve been a lot easier, but maybe now I would be learning another one and it would as much be a challenge, but still.
You’re brave. I learned German for six months during my college day, but then I forgot. It’s one of the very interesting languages.
Great, Because that way you won’t ask me any question in German.
So if you can change one thing in life, what would it be?
In relation to our interview today would have access to great public transit everywhere in the world. I think public transit is freedom. It’s freedom for the people, people of all ages, of all condition. It’s mobility. So great public transit I think is the key.
That’s a very good wish for the world, having freedom. It’s not public transit, but what it bring for people, the freedom and access to job and opportunities and all.
Thank you so much, Renée. It was really great conversation. Really enjoy it. Really learn to learn as a person, as a leader, and also the company, the kind of work you guys are doing. It’s amazing. Thank you so much and wish you good luck with all the endeavor. Now you said 30 countries, and I wish now when we meet again, it’ll be 50.
Hopefully. Thank you.
Thank you for listening to this podcast. If you like this episode, please don’t forget to give us a five-star rating as it will help us to spread our message. If you have any feedback or suggestion for this podcast, feel free to reach out to us at info@mobility (hypen) innovators.com. I look forward to see you next time. Thank you.
I’m very happy actually to see AI having all that buzz in the public transit sector because for us, we’ve always been focused on efficiency and AI, it’s the sea of efficiency.
Welcome To the Mobility Innovators Podcast.
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Mobility Innovator Podcast.
I’m your host, Jaspal Singh. On this podcast, we bring you conversation with leader shaping the future of mobility and transportation across the world. Today we are heading to Montreal, one of the most innovative and technology-driven city in the world. The city is also recognized as one of the world’s premier artificial intelligence hubs.
Our today guest is president and CEO of GIRO, a technology company based in Montreal. She has spent more than 24 years at GIRO and became president and CEO of the company in January 2024. She joined the company after earning a master degree in computer science and operation research from University of Montreal. Her path include role as a business analyst, project manager, executive, and now the CEO. Our discussion will focus on three big mobility themes- operational complexity, energy transition, and human center optimization.
I’m so happy to welcome Rene Tuzan, president and CEO of GIRO. It’s now time to listen and learn. Hello, Rene. Welcome to the podcast. It’s great to have you here. Hi,
Jaspal. I’m very happy to join you on that podcast today.
Thank you so much for taking time out during this summer period. And I want to start with, especially with your professional journey so far, which is quite interesting. I was checking your LinkedIn profile and I must say it one of the cleanest one because you have just one company there for 24 years. Basically after studying mathematics and operational research and then you’re teaching job computer science, you actually joined GIRO in 2002 as an application analyst. And over the period you did different role on delivery, leadership, executive management, and now you’re the president and CEO, top of the boss.
So you started just as analyst and now you’re the boss of the company. So not many people stay that long, honestly. I sometimes wonder what keep people long in that job for so much time. What pulled you first into public transportation and what keep you interested in all these years?
Because I know working on the same problem for 24 years is not easy unless you really love it.
Well, it’s a big question, but I think to start with, I would say that for me, what brought me into the public transit or the tech industry is that from a really young age, I was interested in math, in computer science, in the puzzles, problem solving. So that’s really what got me into at the university in math and computer science. And then I started working at GIRO because GIRO is well known, I would say, at the university I studied. And I started there, as you said, as a developer, as an analyst, and along the way I’ve had different role. But I think one thing you said that I do not agree is that it’s not always the same thing. It’s always different. I had the chance to work with clients in, I don’t know how many countries, but maybe 20 different countries. The problems might be similar, but they’re always different and there’s always something else that you have to work on and that’s interesting for me.
Renée Touzin ([04:26]):
So that’s what I would say kept me at GIRO all those years, always the new challenges, new people to meet. And I would say I’m not so much unique at GIRO. We have a lot of people like me that have been in the business for 25, 30, 35 years. So I’m just one of many, I would say One of many.
I know GIRO is quite popular among university students. It was one of the big brand. And like GIRO in UITP also, we have people working for 35, 40 years and we sometimes they started their career at the company and they retired at the company. And like I said, you need to really love, like you said, the problem may look same, but when you work with different client, different country, it’s very different. Like you said, GIRO is very popular with the college students in Montreal. It’s one of the big brand. What is GIRO all about? This is a global podcast, so I want you to share a little bit about the organization. When was the company founded, who founded it, and what problem is GIRO solving?
Okay. Well, to start, GIRO was founded in 1979 by two people. So it was a university professor and its student, it was a master’s student. And then it was really, they were working on a small problem at the time, which was crew scheduling and optimization of the crew scheduling. So that’s really how it started. And they started working with clients here in the province of Quebec, in Montreal, in Quebec. And then later on and really soon after they had clients around the world. So we had clients in the US, in Europe, in Singapore, in Australia. In the first 10 years, we already had clients a bit everywhere.
Renée Touzin ([06:20]):
And I think it made the solution super flexible because the fact that you are already working with different requirements, different constraints means that you have to have a software that is really flexible. The software, what it does is it’s for planning, scheduling, and daily operation. And at the core of what we do is optimization. So in the past it was operational research. That’s really how it started. Nowadays it also includes AI because efficiency and the seek for efficiency. Today, we have almost 700 employees, all mostly based in Montreal, in Canada. However, we have local people in different place in the world and we have clients in more than 30 countries.
It’s very interesting. You said it started in 1979 and within 10 year it became global. At that time, the planning and scheduling and optimization were not that popular. People were still working on paper, pen and paper. So you actually saw the era when people were working pen and paper. So a little interesting, I know GIRO is one of the few companies which is very focused on planning and scheduling. You didn’t ever try to expand yourself into too many different things and you remain focused on your core. And planning and scheduling is generally which people don’t see. If you ask passengers on the street, what is GIRO? They may never heard about the company, even though you are 700 employee, very big in Montreal. But if you ask the people on day-to-day basis, they have probably no clue because you’re working in the backside, never on the front side.
Jaspal Singh ([08:06]):
Why you think you should remain focused on planning and scheduling and why it is becoming more and more complex in coming days? Why you think with technology actually evolving, the scheduling planning is becoming complex, not simpler?
Well, if I answer the first part of your question, why did we stay focused on planning and scheduling? And I would say also daily operation now is we could have decided in the past to really have this with this expertise and optimization to go into different business. But for us, we want to be more than just a software provider. We want to work closely with our clients and know what we are talking about. And even myself, sometimes I had to meet clients and I would say, “Oh, are you sure this is the rule? Because I think it might be different. It might be like that.” And it was, “Oh yeah, you’re right.” Because I had been working on this similar rule or collective agreement elsewhere and I knew about it. So that’s the first reason why we really stayed focused. Now, why is it becoming more challenging?
Renée Touzin ([09:19]):
I think there’s different things. Every decade will bring a different challenge, but today I would say it’s probably founding. There’s money issue where it’s a challenge with the ridership decrease with the pandemic and many cities are not at even the same level as pre-pandemic. So for sure that’s a constraint they have. Electric vehicle added another layer of constraint to the mix. And it’s a huge subject where you have to really look at how to plan and how to operate it. It’s many, many things you have to think about. There was a workforce shortage on top of that where people, they want to have work and life balance and the public expectation is not decreasing with all of this. They still want to have the best public transit in the end. So I think all of this means that it’s why today I would say in this decade, this is really challenging.
Yeah, all this point you mentioned, and we will actually cover a little bit more in detail about workforce challenges, pandemic ridership falling, funding, financing issue and all. You said something very interesting. You said every decade has something new challenge. And I would say this decade has new opportunity with artificial intelligence and machine learning, which was not there. I mean, 5 years back we were worried about pandemic, world will stop, everything will finish. Fast-forward five year, now everybody’s talking about artificial intelligence, generative AI and all those kind of stuff. How do you see AI is changing zero and public sector, public transport sector overall? Like you said, you want to stay focused, but at the same time you need to catch a pace with the external changes. So what are you doing?
Well, I would say I’m very happy actually to see AI having all that buzz in the public transit sector because for us, we’ve always been focused on efficiency and AI, it’s the seek of efficiency. It’s just, well, just maybe is a small word, but it’s another tool in the toolbox in order to achieve better schedule, better balance for everybody. So I think with AI, yes, it will transform things. It will add a lot of data. New application will come out of it. So it might be like an assistant, which is the obvious solution, but in the end you can do even better things like absenteeism forecast or other practical innovation that maybe with operational research was more difficult to achieve. So for me, it’s another tool in the toolbox and that will be great. And I’m happy to see that all the agencies, they see that, oh, we have to be better and we have to look for better solutions. So for me, it’s just the best.
That’s very true. I talked to a lot of agency, even within our organization. Now we see not AI just as a tool, but more as a tool for driving efficiency in the organization. Hey, what can we do more now with the same resource? Or do we need to put same resources with the technology? Earlier it was like, okay, you bring more and more stuff, but you don’t question about efficiency. But you rightly said now with AI, at least people are now start talking about it. And one of the critical area all the agencies are facing, like you mentioned about manpower issue, it’s a lot of silver tsunami happened. A lot of people left the sector during the COVID and pandemic, so there is a shortage of driver. And then now it’s difficult to fill the role. And I know GIRO is working that part also.
Jaspal Singh ([13:11]):
The new driver doesn’t get the good duties. They get very bad roasters and GIRO is very vocal about, “Hey, you should automate, you should let the technology or the algorithm decide who should get not the ranking, not the service level.” And the cost pressure is also there. Agencies want to reduce costs, they want to reduce service. They don’t have same number of passenger, but at the same time they can’t throw away those buses. So they want to see how to reduce. So from GIRO perspective, what does a good schedule look like from perspective agency or driver passenger? Because passenger want more service, driver want best route and best timing of the day. Agency want more money or serving the better area. How do you marry all these three component together?
Well, I agree with you. It’s three people are in three corners. We have the drivers on one and they want the more breaks maybe, a better work balance in general, better schedules for them. And then you have the passengers and they want to have reliable schedule on time and smooth connection and all of this. And then you have the agency and they want to have efficiency in general. So they want to provide a service for sure, but in a cost effective way. So I would say a good schedule is one that will balance and try to address those three. I mean, sometimes they are opposite. So it’s impossible really to say, we’ll achieve all of three at the same time, but it’s a balance. A good schedule and a good tool will enable you to put different weight on what you want to work on and have different scenarios so that you can have a look at it with different perspective and say, oh yeah, this one is better with this and this one is better with that.
Renée Touzin ([15:01]):
And that way you can work with the different people on different angles and try to see what is the best in that situation because maybe the best schedule today is maybe not the best schedule tomorrow. So You really have those, what is happening today makes a schedule, maybe this is the best, but it might change.
It might change. And this is what I think agencies are a little bit behind. A lot of time they don’t change the schedule very often and they keep the same schedule and the network design never changed for 40, 50 years, whereas the passenger have moved away.
Yes. I think you have to adapt quickly in order to not stay in the current situation that might maybe again, the schedule you produce or you have was the best two years ago, five years ago, I don’t know. But today with giving the other constraints that are different, maybe it’s not the best anymore. So you need to be reactive and be able to adapt quickly.
And like you said earlier about efficiency, so probably they need to look at what is more efficient at this moment, not about what was last year or last month or last week, but what schedule is more efficient to perform this particular moment or this particular day and where GIRO can really help.
Jaspal Singh ([16:30]):
Now, a lot of people say we are in the technology era and autonomous vehicles are here. I mean, I tried vehicle in San Francisco, LA, in South Korea, in China. Its technology is ready. Somewhat, I would say 90% or 95% is ready. And people feel like once the autonomous vehicle will be there, a lot of our problem will go away. We don’t need drivers. The vehicle can run 24 hours. You don’t need to plan any schedule. Everything will be kind of operated in a way. What do you think? I mean, I think right now people are too optimistic about autonomic gaining and expansion of autonomous vehicle. What do you think from GIRO perspective, will the planning scheduling still be relevant and how do you see the future of autonomous vehicles with public transport?
I think that for every problem, the first 90% is usually the easiest and then the last 10% is quite difficult. So we might see bus that are fully automatic, but maybe not so soon as some people are optimistic about, but we’ll see. But still I believe that we might still need operator in the future, maybe not for driving buses, but it could be for security reason, it could be for other type of reason that they might be. So in the end, it doesn’t mean that we’re getting rid completely of the crew on board. As with other problems, sometimes other technology arrive and then something else arise. Electric vehicle is one good example where it improves the quality of air and everything, but on the other end, it makes the scheduling and the planning and the operation of those vehicle, it has other constraint to it. So even though sometimes we believe that technology will solve everything, there might be, and as I said, every decade brings other challenges.
Renée Touzin ([18:41]):
So I’m not sure we will resolve everything. I think one challenge goes away and another challenge arise. So basically we will create new problems with the new solutions. I think so.
And on our side, we love every situation that forces us to really think about and be in a problem resolution mind and say, oh, how do we solve that? And that’s great. We love those situations.
That’s amazing. Like you said, the crew will be still there and probably you need to then still plan and schedule the vehicles. You need to see how to bring more efficiency. Again, I come back to the efficiency point, but how those vehicle can be run more efficiently. You talk about electrification and it’s a town which was very popular in some region. Some region is not any popular anymore because of the current condition, but I think electrification is still happening in many part of the world. And what I see is many agencies which initially think about electrification, they just think about procurement and infrastructure. They never talk about operation. Their major issue is like, “Hey, I need depot, I need charging space, I need charging infrastructure,” but they never talk about how will I run the operation once the vehicle will be there? Why do you think the agency should think about scheduling and optimization as well as infrastructure from day one?
Jaspal Singh ([20:00]):
Why they think operation is not important and what kind of challenge you are seeing they are facing now?
I agree that they should think about it from the beginning, and it’s true that the big decisions they need to make is where will you have the charging station? How will you organize your depot? How many chargers do you need and all of this? And which brand of vehicle will you buy? So you have to make all of those decisions, but those decisions or those decisions will impact the scheduling or the scheduling could impact this. So I think, and this is something we have done with clients in the past. One client, it was two years ago, so it was more or less the beginning of electric vehicle. It was a client in Europe and they needed to buy certain amount of vehicles. It was not only two or three, it was in more than 30, I would say. They came to the office with the spec of the vehicles, the different brand they wanted to buy.
Renée Touzin ([21:07]):
And then we worked on simulation on optimization to see, okay, with this brand, it means that you need to have the chargers over there and maybe more chargers, less vehicles. There were different results and with that, they were able to make better decisions in order to decide which brand of buses they were buying. So for them, it was already something helpful to make battery decisions. So I think people should not ignore the fact that one day you’ll need to operate and schedule those vehicles.
And it’s very interesting what you said about even before procurement, they need to think about their plan. It’s not even when they float the tender, but even floating the tender, they need to think about which kind of buses and how many buses I need and all. And this is one of the challenge I see because a lot of agencies when I talk to them, they say we have hundred diesel buses and we need hundred electric buses. The thing, it’s a replacement of one is to one, which some cases it is possible, I think with better optimization and all, but some cases I saw they have to buy 1.5. So actually they have to buy 150 electric buses to replace 100 buses. What do you think kind of common mistake these agencies are making when they plan their operation? Like you mentioned about your example in Europe, and I know GIRO also worked with BC Transit and it was a case study you guys also published.
I’m very curious to learn how did you help BC Transit to plan their fleet?
Well, I think one mistake would say there’s a one formula for every agency. So it’s a multiplicator by 10% or 5% or 0%, and it’s the same for everybody. That’s not true. So I would say that would be the mistake. I think it depends on a few things. It depends on obviously the type of vehicle, the range of the vehicle, where you will have your charger. So that’s one thing. The other thing it depends on is on your service. What kind of curve of service do you have? So if you have a curve with a lot of traffic in the morning and really tiny peak and then it drops a lot, you have a lot of opportunity to go charge your vehicle after the morning and be back in action for later in the day. So probably in that case, you don’t need as many or maybe not even more vehicle. But if you have really a flat curve of service, that might be more difficult to keep the one-and-one ratio. So that’s really something we have worked with DC Transit in order to determine how many more if the vehicles would be need in that situation.
Renée Touzin ([24:02]):
It’s really different from one client to another, from one garage to another, it’s different. So there’s no magic formula for everybody.
So it’s not like agency think 10% more and they just go for 10% more, like you said garage by garage.
I agree. I agree. I think there’s no formula. That’s the mistake I would say people sometimes –
You have to study each and every route and you need to study your operation and demand and accordingly you need to do that. Now, it’s very interesting what you said, you work with these agencies and you mentioned zero was international from day one. Within 10 years you were in 10 countries and now you’re more than 20 countries around the world and serving members and serving all these operators around the world. So you must have a good global oversight and sometime you’re telling people, “Hey, you shouldn’t do this way and you should do this way.” I don’t know how much they listen because sometimes they feel like, “Why are you telling us instead of me telling you?” What are the key things you are observing happening around the world right now in term of public transportation, how the agencies are looking? You mentioned some of the challenges, but in term of opportunity, what are the key trend you see will emerge in next 5- 10 years?
Well, I think we’ve touched a few things, but what is interesting by being global is that we see, as you said, we see different things, the similar things, but sometimes not at the same pace. So that gives us the opportunity to work maybe on a new subject with one client, one country, and then be able to export that innovation elsewhere in the world. So that’s one thing. EV, electric vehicle is one topic. We have seen it’s a trend. It might not be at the same pace everywhere nowadays, but still I think we learned from it and now it’s more mainstream, I would say. In many places, it’s just the normality, it’s to have electric vehicle. Workforce shortage is something else we see. It’s a global thing. We see it everywhere. The thing I think they don’t necessarily address it in the same way or try to come up with ideas in the same way.
Renée Touzin ([26:18]):
So having work and life balance is something you can try maybe on a daily basis to have a nice schedule, but on a month or during the year, that’s something we have been working closely with some of our clients a lot in Europe where the drivers have kind of a say in what they want as the type of work for the next month. Obviously, if nobody likes night work, we still have to do it. But the idea is that maybe some people really like night work and maybe some are not. And it’s a mix of preferences that people, the drivers, they can put and equity as a fair share at the same time. So it’s not seniority based, it’s really based on a mix of you get a bit of night and then you get a bit of morning, but maybe you get the night, the week or the days you said would be better for you.
Renée Touzin ([27:28]):
So in the end, they still get more what they’re looking for. So that’s another trend we’re seeing elsewhere in many places in the world. We see AI and we’ve mentioned that in the way it changes and maybe the way some organization are thinking more and more about efficiency as opposed to the past where it was not so much of a topic, now I think it opens the discussion about efficiency and just finding the right tool for the right challenge they have as an organization. So that’s something we see and that we’re very happy to see as well.
That’s very interesting. And I think what you said, the similar things that are happening around the world, but at a different pace. Some are moving much faster and some are moving slower and trying to catch up and all. And the point you mentioned about AI and digitalization, and that’s what also we see, many agencies are now forcing. After pandemic, most of them went to cashless transaction because nobody want to touch cash at that time. So they kind of start doing cashless transactions. But what happened with all this digitalization, now you’re getting much more data, which you are not getting earlier. Now you’re getting, like you said about roasting, now they’re getting data about the preferences, why people don’t want to go to that particular route or schedule what is going wrong. So a lot of data is being collected and you must be seeing a lot of agencies are collecting these kind of data.
Jaspal Singh ([29:06]):
How do you see they’re using it? Do you see agencies are getting more equipped to use these kind of data or not? Especially now with, I was talking to one of my colleague and she said, “Hey, I don’t do anything and now I just dumped my data in ChatGPT and asked, Hey, just prepare some nice graphic and analysis and all. So do you think with now generative AI, people are actually more aware about data or you still see they’re still far behind using the data?
No, we see a willingness to use and have access to more data. So that’s something we see, but with the data you have to understand, you have to go deep at what does it mean? What does it tell you? And you need to use it afterwards. And I would say that’s the biggest challenge is that you have to be willing You maybe listen to the data and take action in order to change maybe the schedules, the planning or whatever comes out of the data, there needs to be that. So having access to the data, I would say is the easy part. Understanding what it means and then taking action is really where we see that it’s taking a bit more time in order to take the full benefits of the data.
That’s true. That’s true. It’s not just analysis, it’s like what it can have impact on the operation and having those understanding is very important. And is Jira is doing something about that? When you see a lot of data from scheduling and routing and all, and when you take back to the agency, do you try to explain to them or you just give it to them and say, “Hey guys, you decide.” How do you work with the company? You mentioned something very interesting. You don’t see them as a client, you work as a partner and you work with them to improve their operation. So how do you work with data with them?
Well, be it data or classical optimization, I would say, because AI is newer, but in general we will not tell them what to do exactly, but we will say, “Oh, you should maybe focus on that or we’ve seen that or we’ve seen that elsewhere.” But it depends. It’s up to them in the end to make the best decision for their organization. But we really try to bring the expertise that we’ve built over the years by working with clients in so many countries and tell them, “We’ve seen that, so maybe you could try this or we could try it together.” But in the end, for sure it’s their decision to do it.
No, I agree. And sometime, like I said, when you try to give too much of advice, they feel like, “Why are you giving me advice?” So it’s important to dump them and then just let them know what are the pros and cons and let them decide. Now you mentioned something very interesting, which is how GIRO is building the software. And I know GIRO is a very technical company. You guys are very focused on the technical stuff. The people who are working on the software, they’re not running the system. Like I mentioned in the beginning, your software is in the backend, not in the front end. So probably employee doesn’t, like the thing you mentioned about algorithm and optimization, the driver duty change, changing from their one day night shift to another, it’s a huge change for them. For software, it’s just a one plot.
Jaspal Singh ([32:43]):
I change from one slot here to there, but for people it can be huge change. And a lot of these agencies are dealing with the public service. So how do you make sure your staff member or your employee at the GIRO understand complexity of the outer world? They connect with the human side of the software. It’s not just the software, it’s not just optimizing thing on the paper. Like you rightly said, you ask driver, “Hey, you need to do night shift probably not on weekend, but you can do on weekdays and then we can take your preference and all.” How do you make sure the organization and the staff and the people who are working on such a technical stuff are connected to the human side of the software and the human purpose of the software?
It’s a very good question. I think I would say first thing is that a lot of people at GIRO, we start from being a developer and analyst, a business analyst. So that means that for many, many years we’re in contact with our clients. And almost 40% of our workforce is working closely day to day with our clients. And we go, we visit them, we have conferences with them. We have all those activities. That means that we understand what their challenges are, what their day-to-day life is. And that’s how we keep grounded. And even after that, even myself, I’m not doing the software anymore, working or coding or doing trainings anymore, but I still visit clients. I still go there and I try to understand what were the challenges with the product, when they went live or all of those things. And that’s super important. And I was at a client site recently.
Renée Touzin ([34:31]):
At the beginning of June, I was in Scotland to visit Lothian buses and they went in production with our daily system really recently. And I was there live in the depot with them looking at how they’re using it. And for me, it’s important. I’m still doing it and I expect other people doing the same. So that’s how we keep connected. Our software has an impact on the people using it. So that’s one bunch of people that are impacted by our software, but also the drivers that are.
Even the passenger, the one change in the one timing have a big impact on the person as well. No, that’s very interesting. As a leader, you’re going on the site and being there for the deployment, not sitting in your. I assuming I have visited GIRO office, which is very nice in the nice cabin, but it’s very important to go out. Now I want to discuss a little bit about your leadership philosophy because like I mentioned in the beginning, you’re working in the organization for 34 years, started as an analyst and now reached to this level. You work in different across the level. You experience client side, you experience business side, you experienced the technical side of it. But out of different role, which role shape your leadership the most? Is it more from the backend, technical side or client side? If I ask you, hey Renee, what role was most important for you to be as a leader now what you are as a CEO?
I would say it’s business analyst. It’s probably the role that I had the longest and I really liked that. It was a role I was close to the clients. I was able to visit many clients. I was working sometimes on 10 different projects all at the same times, maybe during the year, not all at the same time. And I was really close to the clients and I could see everything they needed out of the system. And for many years there was one project actually that I worked on and I still have the specification document of that client in my office today. It’s still there. We’ll be there until I leave the company because it reminds me of that project. That project was really challenging and I spent many days, nights, weekend working on that and it reminds me, but in the end it worked. In the end, I put my mind out to it and it worked and it has been working for a long time and that shaped me into understanding, okay, what’s the problem?
Renée Touzin ([37:13]):
Why do you want this? What’s the solution? How do you make sure it’s sustainable and that you’re not just patching something and it’s really foolproof 30-60? So that’s really something I keep in mind for even today when I’m looking at a problem, oh, what would the Renee of that year do looking at this other puzzle that she had?
That’s nice to hear. You are still holding the specification here off. It showed you were really connected with that project. You were really putting your heart and soul into it. And there are these moments which shape up you as a leader. So all the business analysts in GIRO should feel happy. They have a future to become a CEO in future. Now, transit sector is a hard place and I feel very sympathetic or empathetic for the transit CEO because I know the job is very hard, but I feel even the transit tech business is harder. GIRO is a company serving the industry. You need to serve the existing customer, you need to serve their demand, and some of them are legacy system, old system, and then you need to think about future. You need to move forward in the future. As a leader, how you’re balancing between serving the existing market and looking forward the future?
Jaspal Singh ([38:29]):
When you became a CEO in 2024, did you come and say, “Hey, we need to change hundred things,” or you said, “Okay, let’s continue.” What shape up you in last two years as a CEO and what are you focusing more? Is it maintain what we are doing or think about the future?
Well, for sure we’re always looking at the future. So that’s something in our company that we’ve always been focused. We’re looking at the future and I was looking at the future even before I was a CEO as a VP for a few years in the company. So for us and the fact that with AI, but technology, it’s always evolving. It’s always changing. And recently we had a presentation at the office and we asked two people that were there 25 years ago to tell us about how it was when they went from Dust System to Windows.
Renée Touzin ([39:27]):
And for them it was big, big, big, big challenge. And today it’s not that anymore, it’s AI. So we continue with that. Our system is evolving, is adding new things and new things. But the fact that our clients, they also rely on us to maintain what is they have today, which is critical so that it’s still working. But on top, we also add new technology all the time. So we’re still focused on that. So it’s a bit on continuity, but looking at the future. So it’s not continuity. We continue with what we have today. No, continuity and evolving innovation all the time for the future years.
That’s very important. And like you mentioned, even before becoming CEO, you had a good insight about what happening, and then you have a lot of these idea now as a CEO, you can implement and take it forward. And GIRO is growing now. I mean, you guys become a hundred million club in 2024, which is a big success. Congratulations. I know it must be much bigger now. What do you see next 10 years look like for GIRO? Is it like $200 million club or is it most innovative company in Canada or in the world? What do you want your legacy?
Well, actually at Zero, we’re not so much focused on trying to say, “Oh, we want to reach that target of 100, 200, 300.” It’s never been like that. Now, yes, we have revenue over a hundred millions, but our focus has always been on innovation with our clients to make sure that they remain with us. We always provide them with better and better solution, better tools, and also great projects for the people working in the office. So that’s always something that we are looking for because for me as a person who has worked on those projects, it’s always interesting to say, oh, a new client, a new challenges, different ways of working. So that’s for sure, we’re looking for that as well. So new innovation and new clients, well, in the end, it means more revenue, but never the main thing at the front of what we’re working on.
That’s very important to stay focused on what you’re delivering, not on the numbers. Numbers will come if you stay focused. Like you said, when my daughter was running in the race, she was just looking at other people. I said, “Focus on your running. Forget about other, otherwise you will never win.” That’s a very important point. Now, one question I’m very curious to ask you, because like you said, you’re becoming bigger, you have 700 employees, and many of them will be young and with the technology change, you need to recruit new people. How are you competing with some other technology company? Now AI companies coming with huge amount of funding. I know Montreal is one of the big hub. How are you managed to attract talent and bring them in GIRO? Because I think for GIRO, one of the biggest success is the people, the talent.
Jaspal Singh ([42:37]):
How do you manage to attract the right talent to the company?
I think we attract them in different ways. So the first thing I would say is the type of work we do. We are in tech, but in public transit as well, and that’s super popular with the young generation, so it’s a sustainable type of work. So that’s super interesting. The type of work we do as well, problem solving or puzzles, that’s really interesting as well. We reach clients in 30 countries, so the impact you have when you work on our software today, it’s used in so many places and you say, “Okay, go travel and you’ll take public transit and probably you’ll be in a bus or in a tram or in a train.” That has been scheduled with Hastus. I think those are the main factors, I think, how we attract people specifically here in Montreal.
That’s rightly said. People love tech plus sustainability like public transport and the new challenge and global factor is like a flavor. It’s like people can travel and people can see the things outside and all. And one of the key thing is how to attract more women in the technology space and public transport space. And this is one of the challenge from UITP we always talk about. As a woman leading a major Quebec technology company in a global mobility space, I would say it’s a big company, what leadership lesson would you share with people coming up, especially young women in the sector? What will you tell them why they should choose this sector?
Well, I would say the first thing is yes, I’m a woman in technology and at GIRO, and I had the chance in the company that there were other women, maybe not CEO in the company, but there were other women that had a high VP or different roles that were mentor for me, that were role models. So I think that’s the good thing. And today I try to be one of many again. What I would tell the young generation of women or even men, raise your hand. Don’t be shy. Take the opportunity. When I was a business analyst, any trip there was, any projects, I would say, “I’m going to do it. I’ll go there.” I was always willing and I would learn along the way. I would sometimes learn lesson along the way, but it was always good learning. I grew as a better person, as a better business analyst, a better employee in the end by taking all the opportunities that were available for me at the time.
Renée Touzin ([45:24]):
I would say that’s the best advice I would give them.
It’s a right advice. I tell my team member, if you’re not making mistake, you’re not doing things because if you’re making mistake, it means you’re trying to do something. And like you said, raising your hand for things you don’t know or you’re not sure about. But if you feel shy and not raising hand, you will let those opportunity. Very right.
Thank you so much, Renée. So this is my last question. How do you see the future of public transport? I mean, what is the one assumption about public transport innovation that you think need to be challenged? What one thing for sure we need to change in coming days and how you think 2040 or 2050, the future look like? Will we have sky cars or will we have flying drones? What do you think? What is your imagination?
Well, I think one thing that should be challenged is that one of innovation will solve everything, that we will find a magic button and everything will be great after that. I think it will not happen. So I think innovation will help to solve innovation. It’s an accelerator for solving, for helping, for giving insight. But in the end, you need to embrace the change in order to go forward with what the technology or the innovation are telling you with the people. But I hope for the future that we’ll have an even better balance between the operators, the agency, the riders, and that everybody can have the best out of public transit in the future.
That’s very nice of you. You’re still thinking about the passenger and the drivers and the agency. I really like what you said. It’s wrong assumption to think one innovation will solve all the problem. There will be new problem, and also you need different innovation to solving the different problem. Not one solution can fit for all, and that’s very important. When sometime people think like, “Hey, I’ll just implement AI and all my agency problem will go away,” no, that’s not the case. It’s just can solve one problem, what do you want? That’s very right. Thank you so much, Renee, for spending time. It’s a great conversation. Really enjoyed. Generally, we end this podcast with a rapid fire round and ask a little bit about your personal side of it. So if you’re ready, we can start with the rapid fire.
I’m ready.
Okay. So let’s say if you are not in the mobility or technology space, what might you be doing?
If it’s not technology. Well, anything related to problem solving. So that would be related to that. I like a good puzzle, any type, so that would be related to this. So
Basically anything related to the problem solving. Okay. Your favorite city apart from Montreal. I know it’s one of the best city in the world, but any city which is as beautiful, and why you like that city?
I would say Vancouver. Vancouver is special in my heart because I had the chance to spend many summer there when I was a kid or a teenager. And on top of that, it has the mountains, it has the sea, and it has good public transit. So what else do you have for?
That’s true. They have one of the good public transit system in North America. TransLink is doing amazing work. A book or idea that has influenced your thinking. I know the role as a business analyst, but beside that, a book or an idea that really shape up your thinking?
It’s maybe more an idea or a philosophy. I had the chance to work with someone, and for that person, the path was not so much important. It was understanding the why. The why you have this, go deeper at the bottom of the question, make sure you perfectly understand the outcome. So the why is important, is more important than the how. The how is, in the end, it works. That’s the best you want to have.
That’s amazing. That’s amazing process to keep moving forward, and it’s not about stuck with the part, but it’s like why we need to do this. Now, one thing do you wish you should have learned early in life, either professional or personal?
German.
German.
Renée Touzin ([49:45]):
I’m trying to learn German today. It’s been three years now and it’s really challenging. I would’ve hoped maybe learning it as a teenager would’ve been a lot easier, but maybe now I would be learning another one and it would as much be a challenge, but still.
You’re brave. I learned German for six months during my college day, but then I forgot. It’s one of the very interesting languages.
Great, Because that way you won’t ask me any question in German.
So if you can change one thing in life, what would it be?
In relation to our interview today would have access to great public transit everywhere in the world. I think public transit is freedom. It’s freedom for the people, people of all ages, of all condition. It’s mobility. So great public transit I think is the key.
That’s a very good wish for the world, having freedom. It’s not public transit, but what it bring for people, the freedom and access to job and opportunities and all.
Thank you so much, Renée. It was really great conversation. Really enjoy it. Really learn to learn as a person, as a leader, and also the company, the kind of work you guys are doing. It’s amazing. Thank you so much and wish you good luck with all the endeavor. Now you said 30 countries, and I wish now when we meet again, it’ll be 50.
Hopefully. Thank you.
Thank you for listening to this podcast. If you like this episode, please don’t forget to give us a five-star rating as it will help us to spread our message. If you have any feedback or suggestion for this podcast, feel free to reach out to us at info@mobility (hypen) innovators.com. I look forward to see you next time. Thank you.
Can artificial intelligence help public transport agencies deliver better service while balancing tight budgets, driver shortages, and the transition to electric buses? In this episode of the Mobility Innovators Podcast, Jaspal Singh speaks with Renée Touzin, President and CEO of GIRO, about the operational decisions shaping public transport—and where artificial intelligence can make a practical difference.
Renée Touzin is President and CEO of GIRO, a technology company based in Montreal. She has spent more than 24 years at GIRO and became the President and CEO of the company in January 2024. She joined after earning a master’s degree in computer science and operations research from Université de Montréal. Her path includes roles as business analyst, project manager, executive, and now CEO. Our discussion will be focus on three big mobility themes – Operational complexity, Energy transition and Human-centered optimization.
Important Link:
- Renée Touzin: Linkedin
- GIRO: Website
- How BC Transit adopted electric buses
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