Mobility Innovators

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:00:00]):

I don’t mean just like capital grants to like buy buses. So our team will look at, maybe we’re going to build a facility in a neighborhood that has suffered divestment for 50 years. We’re getting ready to build a new transit center in a neighborhood that has 15,000 jobs. No daycare, no grocery store and access to education’s very tough. So our facility is going to be built with daycare, the food bank and classrooms inside. So that opens us up for grant eligibility with workforce and food insecurity. So pursuing grants that might not normally seem like a transit grant. And so our team is able to offset a lot of our capital costs, which then in turn helps us save that money. Now we have plans for that money. It looks like a lot. But considering that this community is growing so fast and we need to really build out our mobility system those reserves are intended to bolster our local match for major federal capital improvement grant programs.

Jaspal Singh ([00:01:12]):

Welcome to the Mobility Innovators Podcast.

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Mobility Innovate Podcast. I’m your host, Jaspal Singh.  Mobility Innovators Podcast invites key innovators in the transportation and logistics sector to share their experience and future forecast. In this episode, we’ll be discussing the role of innovation for the future of public transit agencies in North America.

Our today guest is an amazing transit CEO. She is the president and CEO of the Central Ohio Transit Authority. You can say COTA. COTA is the public transit agencies that serve Columbus, Ohio Metropolitan area providing transportation to nearly 19 million passengers annually.

She assumed the role in April 2018 becoming the second woman to lead the nation in its history and her leadership, Kota has focused on improving the service for customer, including increasing the frequency of services on high demand routes, launching the new program like COTAplus, a micro transit services that provide on demand transportation within certain areas in the Columbus, Ohio. Prior to joining COTA, she served as a Chief Operating Officer of the Transportation Research Center.

She also held several positions at the Ohio State University and the Ohio Department of Transportation. She’s a strong advocate for public transportation and its role in promoting economic development and social equity.

I’m so happy to welcome Joanna Pinkerton, President and CEO, Central Ohio Transit Authority. Now it’s time to listen.

Jaspal Singh ([00:02:52]):

Hello Jonna. It’s great to have you on the show. Looking forward to our conversation today. I mean,  when I met you first time, I saw like there is so much to learn from your experience, so I said I should talk to you for this podcast.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:03:04]):

Well, I appreciate the invitation. Thank you for making the time. Those who know me know that I love to talk about this concept of movement, which affects us all. And so I’m really glad that you asked me to join you on this podcast, and I hope we have a really great discussion ahead.

 

Jaspal Singh ([00:03:22]):

Looking forward to that. And, what’s a good way to start your personal journey into the public transit space? Because you started in Ohio, you started your career in Ohio, but throughout your work with Ohio Department of Transportation, then Ohio State University, but largely your experience was always in automobile and transportation space. And I would say Central Ohio Transit Authority is like your first formal position in transit.

So my question is, what inspires you to pursue a career in public transit? Because it’s not that fancy world. People doesn’t see it as a fancy world. And something I saw your LinkedIn profile, it’s quite rich, but something which you haven’t shared on your LinkedIn profile or public domain.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:04:04]):

Well, I appreciate you asking particularly because I don’t think any, you know, little child or young person girl or boy wakes up one day and says, I want to be a Transit CEO. And that certainly is true for me. I never woke up thinking I’m going to be a Transit CEO, you’re right about my background. It really started with engineering. So engineering can encompass a lot of things.

So had a background in all public infrastructure systems, water, sewer environmental storm water, and of course the roads and the bridges side. And there was this tipping point at some point in my career where, you know, I understood how to build things, particularly, let’s say the horizontal side. And then you know, just my understanding of where tech was going and was recruited into the automotive research side.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:04:56]):

And there was this synergy of like system, right? Like the, the thing that holds it, and then the part that moves. And as I learned more about advanced technology in my automotive work, it became really clear that the transit systems we have in place is really the system that is going to be built and retooled. It’s going to be kind of the spine of this, of this next generation of mobility systems. And, when the COTA board approached me initially I was a little hesitant, as you might imagine. But something about engineering when there’s a problem statement, you know, you can educate yourself. You can learn, listen, surround yourself with experts. And it really was a leap of faith to say, I may not know everything about transit. I know a lot about mobility systems and technology, and so let’s jump into this and see what the problem statement is, and then work towards having a better transit system for our community.

Jaspal Singh ([00:05:52]):

No, that’s great. I mean, I would say we are lucky to have you because that’s what we need more. The transit is there, it’s a backbone, but you need to add the system approach. You need to have that. That’s right. Problem statement approach to solve it.

Now, you have developed at COTA, this short-term strategy plan for 2024, as well as a long range 2050 strategic plan. And I love the point that it is centered around moving every life forward. It’s not about just moving people. It’s like “Moving Every Life Forward”, no matter which part of the world you’re coming from and what is your status, what is economy what kind of person you are. So you want to move everybody forward. I would love to know why that statement you put it.

And the other point is, you know, what happened is, like you mentioned, Covid was a big change for the industry. Once Covid hit everything stopped, public transit was still suffering from it. So what were the challenge faced during that time? Because I know you must be very new in the job and suddenly you got this news of, okay, stop everything and rebuild everything. Right. How did you overcome those challenges. What was your experience during COVID period?

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:07:00]):

Well, it’s interesting to hear you break that question kind of into two parts. And I’ll start with that.

Long-Term strategic planning in our strategic plan when I came on board very well-functioning organization, amazing employees, great people, and you know, really well-run transit agency for the most part. And, but like any organization, I don’t care whether you’re private, public, nonprofit, there was really no guiding principles. It’s like, so how does everybody know what to focus on so that they, you know, that they know that the thing they do today is contributing towards this long-term goal? And so we actually embarked on our first strategic planning process ever here at COTA. I’d been through that in both the private academic and nonprofit worlds. And it was an exercise I give our employees a lot of the credit, almost 1100 employees.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:07:56]):

And more than 20% of them jumped in and contributed, used their voices. We consulted with community leaders, customers. Like, what is your vision for us as a transit authority? What should we be doing for you? And what’s interesting, I think we did have maybe some kind of mission statement or something. And I remember it was like five sentences long and it had the word taxes in it. And I was like, oh, oh my gosh. Like, it doesn’t really inspire you. And the theme throughout every single conversation, of course there’s movement, but it’s not our job to tell you where you’re going. It is our job to support you.

Jaspal Singh ([00:08:36]):

Yeah.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:08:37]):

And what is it that, you know, ubiquitously, we can all agree that everyone deserves opportunity, and we want to move you forward wherever it is you’re going. So I’m not going to say that it’s right or wrong, or that it’s only good for medical or healthcare or for school. Our job is to move you. And so that’s kind of where that moving every life forward came from. And I had some really good board members at the time too, who just got it. They were within the corporate community and going through similar exercises because our community is changing so rapidly. So just had a lot of good partners in developing that new vision statement. And then there’s four pillars, you know, four guiding principles in that strategic plan. It’s really about the customer experience. Customer I should point out, can be the person who’s taking a trip on COTA, or it’s our employees.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:09:29]):

So what is their experience like being part of mobility prioritizing data and analytics like any organization data rich, but analytics, you know, a little weak on the analytics side. And what is it telling us? I see you shaking your head. It’s, that applies to every organization, you know, so prioritizing that data and analytics was another pillar.

Advancing mobility options. We were a fixed route service in central Ohio. Central Ohio is growing, consumer preferences are changing. So figuring out what mobility options should be, and then of course, achieving organizational excellence which is what led us to make changes internally. You probably know that we’ve been named the most outstanding transit agency in the nation twice in four years. And really that organizational excellence and commitment to top-notch service was driven from that strategic plan. But then there was, I’ll tell you, there was this conversation of should equity, diversity and inclusion be, you know, one of the guiding principles?

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:10:37]):

And as we talk to people and people have different opinions about what that means. But, transportation and mobility is something we all need. And it became really clear that that needed to be the center post like this. It all needed to be built around EDI. So instead of making it like a fifth guiding principle we consider it the center of every decision. It’s a lens. So as you’re working in those four guiding principles, you know, is it equitable for all? Does it provide opportunity and is it inclusive so that everyone has the same opportunity. So that, that was kind of the process. And then really, you just got to work the plan, right? You have a North star, it’s a lot to do all the time in transit, and you have finite resources.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:11:25]):

And so it holds us accountable. Like does it fit within one of those four guiding principles? And more importantly, is it Right? You know, is it grounded in equity and are we treating people fairly? So that was the strategic plan. So, fast forward to your question about the pandemic. I am so glad that we had that, you know, those guiding principles outlined before that cause onset of the pandemic. I almost hate to talk about it because like, well that was a level of trauma that we all experienced at the same time. Now we all had different experiences, but it hit us all. And so there was not a lot of data, right? Yeah. Remember that? Like, not a lot of information, not a lot of data, a lot of misinformation, a lot of fear.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:12:15]):

So we had to make decisions quickly and in real time. And so to kind of, to have these guiding principles to say, what’s the data saying what are the customers saying? How’s it going to impact our operations? And does it, you know, will we be able to serve the community? So we do, we meet the tenants of those four pillars. I’m really glad we had that strategic plan as our north star during Covid. Because we had to make really tough decisions. Like there was a time when you couldn’t even buy a mask. Do you remember that?

Jaspal Singh ([00:12:45]):

I know, there was shortage of masks, sanitizer etc. It was crazy.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:12:49]):

Pro mask, anti-mask, you couldn’t even get them. So made a lot of decisions based on what is best for our customers and what was best for our operators at that time. And I think as difficult as it was there was a time period where we, you know, our frontline operators in particular, and then our entire team felt like we are providing a vital service right now for this community. And it really showed with the people who had the ability to stay home and work from home. They had one experience, people who still had to go to work, they had and had to be out. They deserved a safe experience. I remember we found some, I contacted some of my friends in the hospital industry and they’re like, oh yeah, we use this antiviral coding. So next thing you know, we were coding every single vehicle in our entire fleet with this antimicrobial coding. And we actually ended up pursuing a I don’t recall the name, but like a global certification for bio protocol. And I was really proud of that. Like, yeah, that wasn’t in the transit playbook but it makes sense. Our team felt empowered. And that’s something we did, you know, within 90 days of the pandemic starting. And that’s just one example of many of where our people really pulled together, centered around those principles

Jaspal Singh ([00:14:15]):

Mean that’s, that’s superb. And I can now reemphasize your approach about problem statement. Like, you get any problem, okay, we need to solve this. Let’s figure out and not only look solution within transit, go outside, right? Like talk to healthcare hospitals, how they are managing, because that’s a place of more you know, where we, you can have more contagious stuff. So how they are securing their facility and copy that to transit. I love that approach of pulling the problem statement approach and saying, okay, this is a problem guys. Now we need to sit together, brainstorm, and solve it. And I love the point that you remember your guiding principle by heart, because that’s very important. It’s not just a paper written and piece on the wall. It’s actually core to whatever you’re doing in your job.

Jaspal Singh ([00:15:01]):

And not only you brought those guiding principle, but other big achievement, which I see at COTA because I went through some of the annual report and I saw, one of the biggest achievement you have done is you turn a negative cashflow into a positive. Like you, when you, in 2019, I guess you had a $17 million negative funds, and now you have surplus of $206 million. And, and why it is important, because you need to invest now in the transit. You need to invest in the future. And ridership number will never be a hundred percent. It’ll take its time. So the revenue will not come back from the ridership. You have to be proactive to look outside. So just want to understand, what was your magic? How did you manage to turn around not only the strategic part, but the financial part because a lot of transit agencies are still suffering from the financial part. So what was your secret?

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:15:52]):

They, well, they are struggling and I would say, you know, we’re not immune by any means. The transit industry as a whole, you know, finances will always, they always have been and will always continue to be a real challenge because it’s a very capital intense labor intense, these are costs that you need to be able to cover with our change in our budgeting approach. There’s been a few things that contributed to that. So one of those principles when I mentioned operational excellence, it’s just a commitment to managing our finances. So coming in under budget every year, and a lot of that’s not from cuts. So, you know, I know it’s easy to just say, cut something and save money. But again, back to that human centered focus, is a customer going to be negatively impacted, or will an employee be negatively impacted?

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:16:43]):

So we provided, you know, raises to all of our employees every single year during that cost savings period because they deserve it. And so looking at operational efficiencies was a big thing for us. So tucking that money away for a rainy day, of course our position was strengthened by the support from the federal funding under the American Rescue Plan Act and the Coronavirus aid relief. So talking to Washington and just making sure they understood how those funds would be used so that they felt comfortable. You know, allocating them, making them feel like it’s worth it. And then, you know, we’ve done things to eliminate, like post-employment liabilities. But I’d say the biggest shift is we have, and this is tight, this is hard to do. I know we all do it at home, and it’s a real challenge.

 

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:17:35]):

We also have made a commitment and I convinced my board to pass a policy that we will siphon off 10% of our operating costs every single year and set it aside. And so that allows you to start doing more multi-year, like five year capital improvement programs, where you can plan ahead and, and understand your costs. It makes it a little tighter on the operating side. You know, you got to find that money, but then it bolsters your CIP process. And then we have an amazing team who is tireless in their pursuit of discretionary grants. Hmm. and I don’t mean just like capital grants to like buy buses. So our team will look at, okay, maybe we’re going to build a facility in a neighborhood that has suffered divestment for 50 years. Hmm. we’re getting ready to build a new transit center in a neighborhood that has 15,000 jobs.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:18:30]):

No daycare, no grocery store. Ah access to education’s very tough. So our facility is going to be built with daycare, the food bank and classrooms inside. So that opens us up for grant eligibility with workforce. Yeah. And food insecurity. So pursuing grants that might not normally seem like a transit grant. And so our team is able to offset a lot of our capital costs, which then in turn helps us save that money. Now we have plans for that money. It looks like a lot. But considering that this community is growing so fast and we need to really build out our mobility system those reserves are intended to bolster our local match for major federal capital improvement grant programs.

Jaspal Singh ([00:19:20]):

That’s amazing. And in fact, in Hong Kong, all the transit center has a daycare grocery center. That’s all right. Because they want want people to come drop their kid, go to their office, come back in the evening, pick their kid to their grocery, and then go back home. So that’s how the transit should be integrated with everything, because otherwise you need to go to West side to drop your kid and east side to do shopping and not north side or south side to work and home. It’ll never work. So you have to bring everything together. So I’m glad you are actually thinking and doing something which is unique. I haven’t heard transit talking about creating a transit center, not only for bringing buses, but bringing daycare, grocery, shopping center, or other utilities so that people come to one point and they can go home peacefully.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:20:10]):

So, well, it’s interesting that you point that out that, and it makes sense. Like once you say it, it makes sense because easing people’s travel and their journey. We all agree with that. We have some really interesting land use practices in the United States. And so nothing is connected and you have to almost drive or transport everywhere, not very walkable communities. We certainly have suffered from that in central Ohio with zoning changes that were made back in the 1950s. So it’s really important to us. And through that strategic plan process, we heard from our community, like, what are the issues? We know housing is an issue. Our state has been dealing and do doubly impacted by the opioid crisis. ]

We have workforce retraining and kind of that silver tsunami where, you know, aging in place needs, has certain needs. And then the younger generation. So when you look at all that, and then back to that, moving a life forward, what are the needs in the community? We’re the facilitator, we get you there. But having those conversations is really what led us to think, oh, well, we’re moving them to a job, but if they, you know, if they don’t have the healthcare. And it was interesting, that particular area, they had a point where a lot of the employers were experiencing almost a hundred percent turnover.

 

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:21:30]):

During the pandemic. So we’re like, well, you know, what are the root causes of that? And childcare and food we’re the top two, so why not put it in the transit center?

Jaspal Singh ([00:21:42]):

That’s great. I mean, I’m really looking forward to what you built from this and can be sharing with others because that’s that should be a priority for other transit agencies. And one of the interesting project COTA is again, doing, which you mentioned about LinkUS, which is integrating mobility system. You are bringing biking, you are bringing walking, you’re bringing public to transit together. The sad part in North America, we always see transit as an isolated project. We never see as a urban development project because like I see a lot of cities are building light rail, BRT system, and there is nothing around LRT. And I was like, why don’t you build something around the LRT stations and the corridor, create a walking space, create a movement space for people. But they never think about that because they think our job is just to build a railway line and, and leave it. So what is what is your lesson? Why, what inspired you to do that? And also, I would be very curious to learn a little more about this LinkUS project, which you are doing. And, because you are not calling it as a PRT project, you’re calling it very differently. So why, why that?

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:22:47]):

Well, it, so the LinkUS Mobility Initiative, I’m so glad you were able to pick up on that just from reading, you know, material and getting to know us. So that’s a good sign that we’re getting the message out there. So we have this kind of Columbus way, like the US is Yeah. The representation that we have a communal commitment to figure out big problems. Like you probably have heard of our growth, and major economic development deals happening. And those things happen because we work together and as a community grows and as you begin to address things like inequity, divestment in neighborhoods, or what it’s going to take to build enough housing, when you look at it again to a system level you realize, wow, we can’t just improve the timing a little bit. Yeah. And we can’t just build one line because there’s need everywhere.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:23:41]):

So really working with our partners, like the Regional Planning Commission, our planning commission is called MORPC (Mid Ohio Regional Planning Commission). I cover dozens of jurisdictions, cities, counties, suburbs working with each of them and building out a proforma. And when we looked at the gaps, so when you look at how many hundreds of miles and I mean, miles of missing sidewalk. Or the fact that we’ve built incredible bike paths and recreational trails, and the community loves it. Like people want this accessibility and walkability. When you look at Vision zero principles and the dire statistics around pedestrian fat fatalities and automobile crashes that result in fatalities we’re losing almost a billion dollars a year in Central Ohio just from automobile crashes. That’s, and so that’s an opportunity cost. And if you invested your money differently, you know, how do you make that problem go away? So really as the anchor, we thought, as we build our system out, what are all the needs? And so I really have to thank our partners at the cities in the regional planning commissions for helping us go through that very data intensive exercise. I can remember one time the team mapped out every missing sidewalk in central Ohio.

Jaspal Singh ([00:25:09]):

Oh, that’s amazing. It was incredible. You can share that.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:25:12]):

I’m not going to tell you that the price tag for it, but it’s a big price tag. So then you put filters on it, right? So like, where are you seeing higher crash rates? where do people have gaps where they can’t get to transit because there’s no sidewalk or was that previously disrupted by maybe an interstate investment and it was cut off? So we put filters and lenses of equity, health, health outcomes. So if you live in this neighborhood, your average lifespan is 86, 2 miles away, it’s 66. So looking at what public infrastructure would do to social infrastructure, we were able to negotiate, took a couple years, which are the biggest investments in transportation that would result in a different outcome for our community. So the current proforma really is centered around at least five high capacity, likely BRT systems.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:26:08]):

Three of them are under design, several hundred miles of sidewalks and bike trails money set aside for investing in intersection improvements to make it safer for Yeah. All of the different roads and then also equitable ToD (Transit Oriented Development). So we know that if you’ve fixed the transit or the transportation system, it usually enables economic development, housing development, and how do we do that in a way that brings people in at market rate, but also protects those who are living in the communities. And that’s why we call it ETOD, not just TOD. So that financial proforma was really years of work labeled at LinkUS got the community behind it, and it’ll require funding. So you can expect that within so Ohio transits really on the local community to fund there’s not a statewide initiative. So you can expect that within our community, there’ll be a conversation within the next few months. Our, mayor of our capital city even came out and said that that’s something that we’ll need to go to the ballot within just a few months.

Jaspal Singh ([00:27:19]):

I wish you good luck because that’s sound like a super plan. And I like your approach of not doing it alone, taking everything on your own, talking to the partner, talking to other regional agencies. And that’s very important. And I know your first passion is technology. So how you’re looking to use technology in that LinkUS project, what are the technology think you want to bring it and make it like you are passionate about operational excellence, you are passionate about technology, so how you’re going to marry both of them together.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:27:51]):

So it’s interesting to see how quickly vehicle technology is advancing, particularly with advanced driver systems. but, you know, those are things that are just going to eventually be in flooded in all of our lives, whether it’s transit or automotive. When I think about even the traffic signal, so the city controls that, but our vehicles communicate with it, I do think that there’s a major overhaul particularly with artificial intelligence and machine learning where the traffic signal could be communicating just like we all know that our phones are listening to us and talking and they know where we are anonymized. We’d like to think but what is that user experience like? Like I’m on time, my transit’s on time. The signal knows that we all need to go someplace. And really, truly making it a, a connected system.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:28:43]):

I could see where implementing that in a normal capital program needs to be part of all of our way of thinking. Because technology will always change and, and it’s going to accelerate. I remember at the university, you know, more than a decade ago, looking at edge computing with just professors and students who were looking at advanced AI systems. And I thought, wow. Like what happens when the traffic signal tells us what to do instead of it being based on the old circuits the way it is now. So I see a place for it, particularly if it’s used for the right purpose, right? I’m not a believer in technology just for technology’s sake. It has to save lives. It has to you know, reduce our emissions and our carbon footprint. It has to help people be healthier and safer particularly with women, minorities, children who suffer at disproportionate rates when it comes to health outcomes. So I can see some applications there where that’s kind of what gets me excited about the tech space. And I’ll tell you, I get a little criticism sometimes from the industry without being too much of a tech geek. But it’s part of our lives. And so I think it’s our, our responsibility to embrace it and see how it could be used to improve things.

Jaspal Singh ([00:30:00]):

I fully agree with you. And, and the way technology is changing, I mean, people, it’s like, to them it sounds like a language when you talk about EDGE computing, I mean, the word you use, edge Computing, Advanced AI, Generative AI, a lot of people don’t even understand these thing and they don’t see the use cases. But what you said about traffic signal telling you how to make your operation better, that’s a better way of doing not telling the traffic signal when to turn green and red. But it’s telling you, your bus come every day this time, so why don’t you change your route? And according to that, and, and use data analytics, reduce the, the accident rate. And I love, in the previous point you mentioned about how you’re mapping up community, how you’re seeing like why this neighborhood has more life expectancy than other.

Jaspal Singh ([00:30:45]):

What is the reason, what is the why the sidewalk is not there? Because sometime we in transit, we think that our job is just to run the bus and train, forget about everything else. But that’s not true. You are, like you said every life should move forward. So you have to believe in that North star and do. Now the other project you mentioned, which I know you mentioned to me it was very difficult for you to start about this on-demand mobility that COTA Plus and you launched in 2021, you didn’t get too much of big support but you push it forward, you wanted to do, because you understood like passenger profile is changing, they need more services. So can you share what was the response of the service in the last two year?

Also what are the learning from the project? Because a lot of cities are now looking to implement this project, and some of the cities are doing very badly because some of the city, the cost of providing per trip is $70 per, per trip, which is even more than hiring a taxi or other service and are you looking to bring any synergy with paratransit because that’s also one of the challenge in the us.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:31:51]):

Absolutely. I’m so glad you brought paratransit up. So we initially decided to launch Micro Transits in 2019, and we might have been maybe like the third city in the nation to do it. And so like when you’re out there on that kind of leading edge, it’s so important to not be on the bleeding edge. And there wasn’t like an off-the-shelf product that met every need. Still pretty much a VC  startup market. But we saw a need in a back to that land use planning. Some of our communities in our neighborhoods are pretty dense, and we have high capacity corridors. That works great. Yeah. We also have some suburban and even rural environments within just miles of downtown that high capacity. There’s not enough demand for it or cost wise.

 

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:32:42]):

Or even we have some historical neighborhoods that are still brick streets, these gorgeous alleyways on the National Historic Register, I couldn’t fit a full-size transit vehicle down that neighborhood street if I wanted to. So the problem statement was really like, we want to do this. Let’s make it a pilot and let’s learn. And so we launched in partnership with a suburb, which has one high capacity line that Coda runs. And what we learned very quickly is hospitals, employers, food bank, veterans Services really appreciated the ability to on demand our service reliability. And when we launched with seven minutes, so within seven minutes, a vehicle shows up can carry up to six people. And we made a decision since it was a pilot. so a trip is $3 point to point, or if you’re using it to go to the high capacity fixed route line, there’s no charge.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:33:42]):

So the thought is it’s just an extension of your trip. So we got board support to have latitude of like, we need to learn what we learned very quickly, other suburbs started raising their hands and say, me too. Like, you know, we went in on the game, we were able to find funding in local match from the suburb and launched in another suburb. And then found a large part of Southern Columbus. We call South side, it’s really 14 different neighborhoods that make up the south side. So it’s a city within a city. A lot of it, it was the old highway US 23, and now it’s like eight lanes wide in places. So, you know, crossing it as a pedestrian is not an option. It cut off at several different places by interstates when we mapped the sidewalks and then streetlights jobs had been displaced to other neighborhoods, it really became an equity issue of like let’s try launching it there.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:34:45]):

So we have these three major areas where Micro Transits was launched and we’re doing thousands of trips a week. And so what it tells us is there is the demand for people who don’t have car ownership don’t want car ownership, don’t have access to transit easily. It’s not intended to replace the fixed route at all. It’s intended to get people to fixed route or to provide more localized service, especially to hospitals and job centers if there’s not high capacity transit. So we’re learning where the new demand patterns are for residents. We’re also working with nonprofits, hospital systems to track health outcomes to say, is this working? Is it helping people in this neighborhood? So I’m really excited about it. It’s going to stay around for a while. And you mentioned paratransit, so the old dial ride.

Jaspal Singh ([00:35:37]):

Yeah. Dial a ride then.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:35:39]):

It’s all scalable, right? It’s scalable. So what we’ve done, we haven’t integrated the two yet, but in our paratransit we did add on demand services not fully ADA, but more targeted towards aging in place a so maybe you have a walker or a cane. And that has been it. We’ve been overwhelmed with demand there. So looking at how to develop a platform, because again, it still doesn’t exist yet. But there’s a couple companies that are really close of finding one that integrates that entire platform. You know, we use Transit app for fixed route. We use the COTA Plus through Via app for on-demand micro transit, and then we use UZURV for our on-demand PR paratransit. And right now, the problem statement when it comes to integration and open source software is how do I do my job and make it easy for you the user? Like you don’t need to know difference.

Jaspal Singh ([00:36:39]):

What is going on all that.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:36:39]):

That’s exactly right. And we’ve had some great success, early success with integrating Lyft and Uber into our fixed route transit and CoGo our local bike system so that you can see your options. So we’re getting there, but it definitely takes them some software development and I don’t know if you know this, but a lot of data scientists don’t really think of Transit as their first career option.

Jaspal Singh ([00:37:04]):

That’s a big issue.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:37:05]):

So we’re working really hard bring people in-house or contract that work out with some of the universities and PRI and private companies.

Jaspal Singh ([00:37:13]):

That’s a big challenge to attract the right talent. And, and yesterday I was discussing is like the whatever good talent you have, there’s a lot of tech company which need those talents. So it’s, they have a choice between going. But one thing you mentioned, which is very interesting, and I think I never heard about that, how you’re actually making it as a last mile opportunity for high-capacity route, because I don’t think any other city is doing that. Like you can use on-demand mobility to go to the transit center or high-capacity route and you’re not being charged. So that’s superb. So kudo you for that, because I think that’s unique. I haven’t heard about this or I don’t know if any city is doing, but this is first time I heard that you are actually using On-Demand as a last mile connectivity.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:37:55]):

User Wait, that’s actually what drove the initial conversation is there are so many places in it’s kind of a Midwestern thing with our zoning and then also how the interstates are laid out. Some neighborhoods are really great for walking. Others, you get off the transit system and you don’t have options. So that becomes a barrier for people to want to use transit. So we thought, okay, what does this last mile solution look like? Not everybody walks. Not everybody bikes. If you’ve got a kid or a stroller with you those, you know, the bike’s not an option. So yeah, it really started as a first last mile problem statement.

Jaspal Singh ([00:38:29]):

Amazing. Again, problem statement, I think that’s the core of this conversation is that always look every problem as a statement and try to solve it. Now other important thing, which I’m big fan of COTA is doing is that you partner with Rev1 Venture to set up the Go-Mobility Lab, which is unique. I mean, there are some transit agencies which have in-house team to do that. But setting up a mobility lab, something unique. And I think you’ve got some integrated mobility innovation grant also $1.7 million from the FTA, which is second unique feature you have there. And you’re looking to use AI and machine learning to improve the efficiency and customer experience. So can you discuss the role of Go-Mobility Lab, how it’s supporting innovation and collaboration in transit space, and what are the lesson you want to give it to other agencies? Let’s say if some agencies say, okay, we want to follow this model, how should we do it?

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:39:24]):

Well, that’s, I appreciate you asking that question. That really is a great question. And I have to give kudos to other leaders within the transit agency. When I came on board, it came from a research but very applied research innovation space and thought, who’s the innovation department, or the equivalent of, because that to me is just such a standard business practice nowadays. There wasn’t one. We worked really hard to recruit our Chief Innovation Officer pretty amazing. And she’s also an engineer interest only enough comes from the aviation industry and has a CX background from her years at IBM and other places. But, so the concept was, we’re going to invest in this, so there has to be a commitment from the leadership top down. And spoke to a few others in major cities.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:40:13]):

They were very welcoming. You know, we’re Columbus. Sometimes people are like that’s a big city. Or sometimes they’re like, where’s Columbus? They were very welcoming, and let us kind of investigate what their innovation departments looked like. And I learned very quickly that it has to be a top priority, you know, CEO level, and then immersed as a layer throughout the organization. It just can’t be this department over here. So set that up as a priority. Didn’t have the Go-Mobility lab at first. And our Chief Innovation Officer very quickly came to realize that there’s people who want to partner with us, but we didn’t have a mechanism. So that partnership with Rev1 was really important. My advice to others is, one, you can do it, it doesn’t matter if you’re big or if you’re small.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:41:00]):

You can scale it to what works for you, but then you have to have a mechanism, you know, just like I guess it’d be like business development. And so what Rev1 does for us, we’re really fortunate in Columbus to have a great VC and startup community. And they are the nonprofit arm we’re where non-profit or VC is invested. And then startups come in to be vetted to try and win funding. So we reached out to them, and they do this with a lot of other organizations. They help Nationwide Children’s Hospital, they help Waco, which is our solid waste authority. They have partnerships with, I think with Nationwide Insurance and like the local pizza chain and their innovation labs. So they really became the administrative arm for us to kind of vet ideas like, is this idea about mobility going to fit within one of those pillars to help people?

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:41:54]):

And if so, then the project moves forward. And then a key element is can we bake it into our capital budget? Is it something, we can allocate operating dollars to? Or more often than not, like you mentioned the $1.7 million FTA grant, can we go find a grant for that? There was not a grant for artificial intelligence in 2021, but we took it to that, that JPO and R&D concept in USDOT and said, what kind of funding is there? If we can prove that integrating AI with our traffic management will help first responders. Will save lives and reduce emissions. And so that’s how our team won that grant. But really it’s about setting up the pipeline of how you’re going to manage the projects, because there’s a lot of good ideas out there. Yeah. but not all of them, you know, being able to pr prioritize which ones to, to invest in is really important.

 

Jaspal Singh ([00:42:50]):

I think one important point you mentioned is you cannot do it alone. You need to have partner, who understand the space and the transit can be a platform, but how to vet the idea, how to attract the right founders. Because I meet a lot of founders. I mean, they are passionate, but not everything is going to work. So you need to filter out which are the idea which will work out. And this VC ecosystem, they understand the space better than the transit world. So we should not spend time and effort where we don’t we don’t have capacity. Let them do that and work transit on the platform to use those idea to improve those. That’s right. I fully agree with that. And that’s why I see a lot of cities and lot of departments set up the innovation department, but it never work. Not where there are very few examples where it work.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:43:39]):

It really does have to be organization-wide. It cannot be isolated. And that was some great advice I received from other leaders who were having success. And then also the removing the risk and or the fear of risk. So government agencies have a tendency to be like, this is the procurement process. And yes, there are laws and we follow all the laws, but that doesn’t mean you can’t figure out what’s out there. And so sticking with that model of I only buy this part to do this thing, it’s really a mindset shift. Of okay, that’s the problem statement in I need to go find a partner. And so often what happens is there’s maybe only one or two in that space. So figuring out, working very closely with your finance department, your board of trustees, and figuring out how you can fund startups or pilots is a really important part of the process.

Jaspal Singh ([00:44:35]):

And, also the procurement team. So I think one of the best job is done by transfer for London. They have a good open innovation department. They are doing super. They do. So one important point, you mentioned little while back about attracting talent. And when I visited the quota website, the first thing I saw was sign up bonus for the drivers. And it’s, you are not unique because whole world is facing this problem of staff shortage, especially the transit operator, mechanical staff, the workshop staff. So what you, I will be very curious to know what is your perspective on this issue? Do you think it’s a transitory phase? I mean, it is temporary or it’ll help to stay. And what are the innovation quota is evaluating to address this workforce challenge, like autonomous mobility? Some cities are thinking, like in Japan, they are thinking autonomous mobility can solve everything, or we need to bring some kind of technology. What are the innovative idea you are implementing at quota to address this challenge?

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:45:36]):

Well, I do wish innovation could just make this magically go away. Workforce is our number one issue. And like you said, we’re not immune yeah to this challenge. So there’s a few different things we’re doing. The landing page of course, says there are careers here, consider transport. I think even though the entire world, especially the United States is dealing with a workforce crisis, transport has been hit a little harder than other industries. Partly because it’s tough job like transportation tough, right? So people have to generally want to be in this space. And so I think we’ve really focused our messaging on the why, like saying, you make a difference in your community. So that’s been part of our approach to marketing. And that has really actually changed the number of applicants we have coming in. Like everyone else.

 

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:46:31]):

We’re offering sign-on bonuses, we’re offering referral bonuses to our existing operators and employees. But I think to your question about is this temporary? We’re in this for a while. I especially talked to a lot of my executive friends in healthcare who have like vacancies of like 30% nursing staff. How do you, and yes, this is crisis level. And so we, we all kind of presume that we’re going to be in this for a couple years. I hope I’m wrong. I, I really hope I’m wrong. But even if you look back a few years ago when I started here, I remember skilled trades. That was a big topic. We started a vehicle maintenance internship program with high schoolers back in 2018.

Jaspal Singh ([00:47:19]):

Amazing.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:47:20]):

They’re paid, they’re learning on the job. They’re still going to high school. It took several years. So it took three to four years for that program to really pay off, but it’s working. So it’s showing younger generations that there is an opportunity for me and I can earn good money and the company will invest in me and help me earn my credentials. So a lot of these training programs are credentialed certified by universities or post-secondary institutions or even the state of Ohio. So we’re going to have to shift that same focus to every job opportunity within COTA, not just vehicle maintenance. We’re looking at establishing a similar program for operators. Again, it might take a couple years for that to pay off. And then talent, we have been really consistent about messaging. The why I mentioned our chief innovation officer from aviation industry, our chief people officer, we got her from the manufacturing industry, but we really sold them on the why, why, like the work you do matters.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:48:26]):

The work you do matters. And I think everyone’s kind of going through a little bit of self-evaluation at this point in time, having been through multiple global crises and there’s an opportunity to have a conversation with workforce there about, you know, this is not only a place that pays well, but that there’s a career here. We also focus really hard on getting the message out about female participation and minority participation. We are more than 60% minority at COTA and the transport industry as a whole is roughly 15% female. We’re 35% female here.

Jaspal Singh ([00:49:05]):

That’s amazing.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:49:06]):

We were at 30% when I came on board and really it’s about modeling. You know, if you see it, then you can believe it. So if they see people, you know, women who are bus operators, if they see female managers, if they see a female CEO you know, I think it helps people to understand that this career is for them. But we have a lot of barriers to remove too. You know, scheduling is tough. I’m working really hard to try and get paid family leave, interesting dynamics there with our union who’s opposed to it. And I have to engage them and find a way to make them feel like that’s for everyone. But, you know, women have different issues when it comes to families, but we want to extend that family leave to men as well. So just being consistent and persistent with the message of we’re trying to build an inclusive environment here. And I think it’ll pay off in the long run in the short term. It, it hurts, I’ll tell you, it’s tough right now.

Jaspal Singh ([00:50:07]):

This is so unique because I was in one of the transit agency, one of the biggest one in America. I went to the workshop and they were struggling to hire mechanics and electrical stuff. And we were discussing the same idea is like, why don’t you engage the high school student and they had no clue. I mean, they are still thinking to do it. And it’s amazing to see you are already doing it. Again. It can be a role model for other agencies, because that’s what I was telling. You need to cash them young. You need to show them a career path. You need to bring transit operator to show that you don’t start an end your life as a transit operator, but you can grow in your career. You can rescale, you can upgrade your knowledge and what you mentioned about women participation, I think that’s very important, but also challenging, the facility you need to have your facility create around the female staff member. They’re probably creating a childcare facility like you mentioned, that can be a big motivation for them to drop up their kid and then go for work and come back and pick them up. So one need to be innovative to bring more participation because their, their needs and challenges are different. So great to see you are leading it.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:51:18]):

Well, we’re making strides. I you know, I read reports and it’s kind of sad or maybe even a little scary to me that it’s estimated it’s going to take more than another century for women’s pay equity to and then even with the unpaid labor, right? Like you mentioned all of the things like yeah. We lost 3% of our female employees, and I think nationally the numbers were double digits that of the number of women who dropped out of the workforce during the pandemic. And it really was because there’s this expectation of you’re also taking care of everything else. And so, you know, helping our male colleagues and our male employees be empowered to be also having parental leave, having access to that same childcare, you know, it really is about the system. It’s going to take a while. Yeah. but I like the fact that we’re modeling for other people that it can be done. It’s certainly not a perfect system yet though.

Jaspal Singh ([00:52:15]):

But that’s a way to start. In fact you know, another report I read from COTA website was your sustainability plan report. And it’s super Yes. Kudos to you. Because it’s not just a report, it actually create a vision for decarbonization and in that report, I remember you mentioned about the quota will increase the number of women by 10% in next 10 year. So, so you have a clear number stated there. You’re not just saying, okay, we will increase women participation, but you are putting a target of 10% in 10 year and increase in, like you mentioned, already 5% achieved. Now you need to make 5% more. But  I’m pretty sure it’ll be more than 50% in coming years.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:52:53]):

Well, I have to give a lot of kudos to our chief engineer. He is a navy veteran worked in the railroad industry really committed to serving others. And when he took on the challenge of our sustainability plan and brought consultants and, minority groups in, and we talked about what does sustainability actually mean? So we can set targets to be carbon neutral. We can reallocate our capital to accomplish this, but why, back to the problem statement, why are we doing it? And it really boils down to our children subsequent generations from an equity lens who’s being impacted right now. And so that’s why there’s goals in our sustainability plan about people. Not just vehicles and buildings. So I was really, really impressed with him and his team to look at it from a human-centered design concept.

 

Jaspal Singh ([00:53:51]):

I mean it’s that plan. I feel it should be sent to all the agencies. It talks about people. The other important point, which I read in your sustainability plan, and you can see I did my homework, is you did, you have your zero emission target, but your zero emission target is very different because other agencies, they say our full fleet will be a hundred percent zero emission by 2030 or something like that. But your emission is that you want to actually reduce net zero.

You want to be net zero greenhouse emission and PM2 particular emission by 2025. So you’re not talking about only the vehicle emission, you’re talking about everything. And something which I found very interesting. Again I was so impressed that you have a mission to reduce the $10 million in community saving through avoided work disruption and medical cost by this goal. So you’re not just saying, we will have green buses, but you’re saying, how will we see the benefit? So $10 million of saving through this medical cost and economic benefit in the county. Can you share what is the net zero strategy of COTA and what are the key bottleneck for the adoption of this strategy or moving toward electrification?

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:55:08]):

Well, it’s interesting to me those certain topics, so whether it’s climate change, equity, sometimes these are polarizing. I don’t know why, but they are. So let’s acknowledge that different people have different opinions about what needs to be done and humanizing this is what was really important to us to avoid or to help clear bottlenecks. So the business community, I think largely understands climate change and the fact that it’s a risk to their bottom line. But me saying, we’re going to have net zero or, you know, zero emission vehicles unless you’re a tech geek or maybe a mobility geek like me. It’s like, okay, whatever. It just sounds like you’re spending more money.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:55:58]):

But when you look at some statistics like childhood asthma. Or the fact, and so this is a statistic in Ohio, I’m from Southern Ohio and in that Appalachian region along the Ohio River, the antibiotic use, the asthma the infection rate with upper respiratory diseases are 3-4 times the national average. So if you can humanize it and say, I’m not just spending money to have zero emission vehicles, I’m doing it because we will be able to improve your quality of life. So I think transportation maybe got a little lost in being able to tell their story about what services we provide or what we’re not doing well. Transportation’s now number one source of pollution in the United States and how it is that we got to that number one status is not okay.

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:56:54]):

So you know, tying it back to people’s health and welfare, like you have to be able to move in order to live and to be prosperous. And so we look at these type of things might be a bottleneck that someone’s like climate change isn’t real or it doesn’t affect me. But then when you talk about health outcomes or everybody graduation rate that’s really I think the biggest bottleneck we have as far as I’ve got a great board and I happen to have a great community, Central Ohio. Not everybody might agree with that, and they might say, what is this, you know, electric craze or zero emission craze. But I think time and communication will prove that this is the right step to take.

 

Jaspal Singh ([00:57:38]):

I love your point, because that’s what where I think the communication and storytelling is important because you need to again, you come to that point of saying why you’re doing this? Why we are actually, I mean, that’s, a lot of agencies don’t understand why we need to have electric vehicle or zero emission recall is because not just to have a fancy toy, but you actually want to make transit more sustainable. And recently there was a lot of conversation going, whether you want five electric buses or 50 diesel buses, like whether you want more service or less service. So, gotcha.

Like you said, there are different group. One group will say, we should just have five electric buses, and other group will say, we should have more service. It doesn’t matter, even if it’s a 50 diesel buses or gas buses. It’s like CNG and all. So I think the messaging is very important and people look for service and people look for better quality of service and better health outcomes. So, great to see that.

And what is the plan? Like you already have electric buses. Are you planning to procure electric buses? What is the stage you are at in?

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:58:46]):

So we do have just a few electric buses. We have more than, let me, more than 20% of our fleet is on order. I think you’ve heard of the supply chain issue.

Jaspal Singh ([00:58:56]):

Yeah. Yeah. That’s

Joanna Pinkerton ([00:58:58]):

So we have a normal capital replacement program. Our commitment moving forward is everything will always be replaced with zero emission. Now you’ll notice that doesn’t say electric. It’s zero emission. So it might be an electric vehicle. I think we have 28 of them on order right now. But then looking at the power source, so the generation and the transmission of the power that involves your utility company. And we thankfully have a great relationship with our utility company. They actually sit on our board, so they’re very close to this topic. And then your normal capital. So major renovations of our building we needed to renovate our mechanical technician base anyways, so now’s the time to go ahead and build the infrastructure that supports heavy duty charging and also accommodate maybe future. So are we talking hydrogen? In the near future. So our commitment is zero. And then looking at how your normal capital program can be funding that by making different choices?

Jaspal Singh ([01:00:01]):

In last one are I noticed like at least 20 unique things, which COTA is doing. I never heard about that. Like you mentioned about utility companies on your board. That’s amazing because now they are part of your decision making and they are supporter. They will not object to your plan. They will be part, and they know in advance what quota is planning, how much power is required, how utilities can integrate. This is so unique. So again, congratulations for, for having all these ideas and working with all the stakeholder.

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:00:32]):

Well, I do have to give credit to our utility company. I don’t know how we got so fortunate. If you look at utility boundaries, they’re even district the, the current CEO of our utility company, which I think they cover like 11 states happened to sit on our board and I still remember her saying we’ve always been, you know, a power company and with this massive shift in focus on transportation, she’s like, we’ve never had to be a fuel company. Like fuel for vehicles.

Jaspal Singh ([01:01:07]):

Yeah, yeah. Right.

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:01:08]):

So their problem statement is like, how do you not only generate enough electricity, but how do you distribute it? When we did the $65 million renovation to our primary transit facility in included heavy duty charging in that transformer in the network adjacent to it couldn’t provide the electricity.

Jaspal Singh ([01:01:29]):

Yeah.

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:01:30]):

So we started those conversations with them three years prior so that they would understand and then also so that they would prioritize us because they’re going to have a lot of people making demands on them.

Jaspal Singh ([01:01:42]):

The renovation of utility infrastructure, like transit is not their first priority. So automobile and other sector is, but probably transit they never think about.

Thank you so much, Joanna. Now this is my last question and it’s about future. So what is your prediction for 2035 regarding the future of mobility? How do you see 2035 look like and how do you see the role of AI and ML transforming public transfer sector?

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:02:08]):

That’s a really big question. So I, you know, I might go a little higher level, maybe, you know, if people who are thinking like wheels on the ground, I’m going to go a little higher level. General public probably doesn’t think about transportation, demand modeling. But everything we do in transport is based on historical. It’s like rear view mirror instead of windshield. So I do think whether it’s AI, machine learning, or what we’re going to learn from alternative fuel vehicles priorities shifting to say transportation systems should not kill people. They should not have poor health outcomes. I think all of that is going to switch to more information being available and maybe even some predictive in real time.

Information and analytics so that we get away from this old transportation demand modeling that predicts the future based on what was done in the past. If ever there was a case study for this, it would be the pandemic. So people are traveling different, their work environments, whether it’s hybrid or all from home or in the office, it’s all different. So I think kind of doing miniature transportation system redesigns all the time based on technology being able to tell us what’s going on is the future.

Jaspal Singh ([01:03:28]):

And more real time. So we’ll get more real-time feedback, how things are changing. And I agree. I fully agree with you. And sometime I give example to people about Uber because I work there and idea is not to say anything particular about the company, but is like they have predictive modeling.

They tell the taxi guy when and where they should be because they anticipate demand in advance. You know, they don’t, it’s not like you just open the app and the taxi will just appear out of nowhere. So they know how many people will open up app there, what is their chances, and like you said, they listen to our conversation, they integrate with our calendar, so they know this guy is heading where, and then the vehicle is available. I fully agree with you. It’ll be more predictive. And I love your analogy by looking the rear view or windshield. It’s better to always look for windshield because then you can drive faster.

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:04:19]):

And imagine that example you just gave, you know, that’s the vehicle and the system side. Imagine the infrastructure, having that level of connectivity and intelligence. I always use the analogy for our beautiful downtown is four lanes wide. We’re not going to make it eight lanes wide and tear down our gorgeous historical state house or, you know, the bank tower. We’re going to get more out of that existing, you know, five lanes and change how it’s used. So I think once the infrastructure is able to incorporate that technology, you’re going to see a, a lot, a whole host of added benefits.

Jaspal Singh ([01:04:57]):

Oh yeah. I recently attended this Tesla annual day, and I got some of the lesson for transit. Like in Tesla, they have now a road pattern, so they know when the road condition will be bumpy. So their suspension system will automatically exist according to the road. So you don’t need to do, so you will get a smooth route. They’re charging network, they automatically know which charge area is available by what time, so you don’t need to go and wait. So I think a lot of lessons we can learn from outside the industry and improve. Right. And use the technology.

Well, thank you so much. I mean, we discuss about transit and technology and a lot of other stuff. Now we have this rapid fire question round to little bit more about you.

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:05:41]):

How I do know bout this?

Jaspal Singh ([01:05:42]):

It’s a surprise. So it’s basically to know what you feel, what you think, and get some quick answer from you. So if you’re ready, I’ll just start.

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:05:52]):

Shoot. Go ahead.

Jaspal Singh ([01:05:53]):

So if you are not in the automobile or technology and public transit sector, what other profession you would’ve selected?

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:06:02]):

This may surprise you, but I think had I had more the more of the follow your passion, my initial major in college was a double major in engineering, in music performance. So I think, I think instead of saying I need a steady paycheck, I’m going to be an engineer, I think I would’ve entered more of the, the musical scene. I still have a great passion for the symphony and the arts, so I think I would’ve gotten into music performance, but no one may probably music management at some point.

Jaspal Singh ([01:06:37]):

No, that’s great. I met some guests. They want to be chef someone, somebody want to be, like you said, musician, somebody. I mean, everybody has a different passion, but at the same time, I tell people, we are lucky to have you in transit because we are helping to promote it.

Now you travel different part of the world and within us, like which is your favorite city in the world?

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:06:56]):

Favorite city, you know, that that’s likely one that I’ve never been to. I suspect that there’s a lot that I haven’t seen. So I’m excited to travel more, especially now that it’s a little easier with my children being older. But you asking that question makes me there’s just this instant memory that popped up where I was able to take one of my sons to Paris. And the memories were so good because we were able to explore the city and we, and we could navigate it. It was easy to walk, use the bus, the subway, the train, and our ability to explore and move really made it made it a great experience.

Jaspal Singh ([01:07:38]):

Yeah. If you really want to see any city, you have to walk around. That’s the only way to discover if you’re just driving in the car or in a vehicle, you will never explore the city. So it’s always good to walk around. No good to know that.

Now my third question is what is the most important leadership lesson you have learned from anybody or any person gave you? Like, what is your most important leadership lesson?

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:08:00]):

Undoubtedly, absolutely. Undoubtedly that servant leadership is not only needed, but it’s a necessary model for leadership. You know, you don’t have to be the c e o or in a senior position to be a leader. You ha you have to be able, you have to care about others. You have to be able to collaborate and include different perspectives Yeah. To address issues. And, and, you know, that might sound like kind of an engineer answer, but really if you think about people first you will always come up with better solutions. So I think servant leadership that’s what I’ve learned is that it’s the right thing to do.

Jaspal Singh ([01:08:38]):

No, amazing. I agree with you. You not always need a title or role to do take a leadership role. You need to just come forward and do that. Now, my next question is, what one thing do you wish you should have learned early in your life?

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:08:55]):

I have a real quick answer to that, but I have a more thoughtful, first of all, I wish I would’ve learned coding. So I do plan to go back and learn how to code. But, you know, I wish I would’ve learned that kind of, I’m going to say this in air quotes norms that are imposed on women you know, by certain groups of people. And I understand it’s not the majority, but kind of those that, that bias that’s imposed on women, it should not be a reason to not speak up or advocate for myself or for others.

Jaspal Singh ([01:09:28]):

That’s I think both are, both are important point. But I, I like your point about like, you need to learn early life that speak out if whatever you feel, and I have twins – a daughter and son and I treat them equally, and I tell my daughter, like, you have first right to say he doesn’t. So, I’m training her in that way that you speak out first, not him. So that they learn.

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:09:50]):

Yeah. I’ve always had a voice and I’ve always known what’s inside here. I don’t know that it took me a long time to learn that. And so I wish I would’ve learned that earlier.

Jaspal Singh ([01:10:00]):

No, but you are supporting and coding. There is a woman who was 70 years old in Japan, and she learned coding and created her own app. So there is no age to learn coding. You can.

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:10:11]):

I’m hoping that someday the girls who code this is a great organization. I follow their CEO online, and I’m hoping someday they’ll like, invite me in and I’ll be on their board or learn how to code or something. I think it’s so cool what the younger generation and younger generations of women have access to now.

Jaspal Singh ([01:10:30]):

Oh yeah. That’s you know, technology is a great eualizer and bringing that. Now my last question is, if you can change one thing in life, what would it be?

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:10:40]):

Cool. That’s a pretty heavy question. I, you know, honestly, and frankly I would eradicate, I would eradicate the hopelessness that stems from poverty. You do not have to have material wealth to be happy. But the hopelessness, which stems from systemic poverty is not something anyone should have to endure. It’s really hard to get out of and overcome have seen it firsthand, have firsthand experience with that. And so that hopelessness associated with poverty, I would, I would just eliminate that for people with the swipe of just like that.

Jaspal Singh ([01:11:25]):

No, that’s a great point. And, I think that’s the biggest thing people need. It’s not the material wealth, it’s the hope to do something bigger and better, and that’s what can motivate everybody to move forward. That’s a great point.

Thank you, Joanna. I really enjoyed our conversation. Like I said, the earlier, I got like so many new lessons from this conversation, I wish, like I can tell other transit agencies to at least copy five for six idea from this and implement. Because what we are doing after seeing so many transit agencies around the world, I know a lot of things. You’re doing unique and I’m happy that I’m doing this conversation so that we can share this idea with others.

Joanna Pinkerton ([01:12:05]):

I appreciate you sharing. Thank you for bringing us into your fold.

Jaspal Singh ([01:12:08]):

Thank you for listening to this podcast. We’ll be inviting some other inspiring guests in the coming week. You can subscribe to this podcast online to get the notification for the next episode. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to give us a five star rating as it’ll help us to spread our message. If you have any feedback or suggestion for this podcast, please do right to us at info@mobility-innovators.com. I look forward to see you next time. Thank you.