Mobility Innovators

 

Jaspal Singh [00:04]:

Welcome to the mobility innovators podcast.

Jaspal Singh [00:12]:

Hello, everyone. I’m so happy to welcome all the listeners from around the world to the mobility innovators podcast. I’m your host, Jaspal Singh. Mobility Innovators Podcast invites innovators in the transportation and logistics sector to share their thought about the key changes in the sector about their work and what is their forecast for the future? When I was thinking about my first guess it was a very easy choice for me. I know someone who is heading 135-year-old, an international organization having more than 2,000 members in 100 countries, the person I really admire and feel inspired by. I’m so happy to welcome Mohammad MEZGHANI, Secretary-General of the International Association of Public Transport. It’s time to listen and learn.

Jaspal Singh [00:58]:

Hello, Mohammad, thank you so much for accepting our invite, we are so fortunate to start our innovation journey with you.

Mohamed Mezghani [01:06]:

Hello Jaspal and thank you very much for offering me this opportunity to participate in this.

Jaspal Singh [01:13]:

Thank you. Today, I’ll be spending time to learn more about you, about your leadership strategy and your perspective on mobility. So to start with, I would like to ask you to share a little more about yourself and about UITP to our listener.

Mohamed Mezghani [01:30]:

So I was born in Tunisia 58 years ago, grew up there. I graduated in industrial engineering. Then I moved to Paris where I studied transport. And then I started working after those studies. I’m currently the secretary general of UITP. So secretary general means executive director of UITP, which is the International Association of Public Transport. UITP is a very old not-for-profit association established in 1885 in Belgium. It gathers the public transport operators, public authorities and regulators of mobility, the supplying industry consultants, universities with interest in urban mobility. So in total is about 2000 organizations, more or less from hundred countries. And, UITP covers all urban and suburban mobility solutions, including metros, tramways, buses, ferries, shared modes, taxis, ride-hail etc. So, I would say every mode except the individual use of cars, and our mission is to advocate for public transport and sustainable mobility to grow and knowledge and research in this field and, and also, to offer a platform for mobility stakeholders, where they can meet, they can work together and help them develop their vision and business in the field of public transport.

Jaspal Singh [03:03]:

Great. Thank you. Thank you for sharing this. I know that UITP has a history of 135 year old which is a big national archive for Belgium. You mentioned that you started long back in transportation. I think it’s like more than 32 years now in transportation out, of which 23 years are with UITP. So it showed that you really love UITP that’s why you’re sticking around for so long. So I’m curious to know, how did you start working in the mobility sector, and actually what motivated you to continue to work in the same sector for so long? I mean, 32 years, it’s long period and something which is not on your linkedin. So something I want to know, which is personal to you.

Mohamed Mezghani [03:49]:

Actually, it started when, when I was a student in Ecole Nationale d’Ingénieurs de Tunis in the engineering school, I remember we had a visiting professor from the Polytechnical school of Lausanne in Switzerland. It’s a very famous school in mobility and transport. And he was there to teach us transport for one week. We had a one-week seminar about transport and I liked very much his lesson and the link with my everyday life of being a regular user of public transport since I was a child, actually. So he was talking about issues that were very concrete for me, which was not the case in many matters. We were studying at that time. You know, we studied a lot of matters in the engineering school, and so of them are very theoretical and, but this one is, was very applied to life.

Mohamed Mezghani [04:43]:

And at the end of the year, I decided to continue studying, uh, transport in France. So I moved to France. I joined it’s called École des Ponts ParisTech in Paris. It’s also the highway school in Paris for Master in Transportation. And since then I have been working in the transportation sector for my whole career. First I started working in a public organization in the field of energy efficiency of urban mobility. So you see it’s a topic which is very important now, then in a consulting company, French one, mainly working in Africa and then in UITP since 1999, where I started as a researcher and then had many other positions, including the management of the work program of the association. The development in MENA in the middle east and north Africa, where I established the Dubai office, and the management of the global of the association for many years, and now Security General since January 2018.

Jaspal Singh [05:55]:

That’s, that’s really an interesting journey. And I really love, how it started with that one-week lecture. I just want to now touch upon an important topic because, being a go global leader, you’re meeting a lot of people around the globe. You’ve seen the pandemic has really a big negative impact on the transportation and travel industry. It’s very sad that transportation agency lost 50% of their ridership. I mean, kudos to your leadership. You know, you, we did a wonderful job by sharing some of the best practices with members. Now you’re meeting CEO and high-level executive and agencies. Can you share a glimpse of some of the backroom discussion you have with these leaders? Like what they are thinking, are they talking about funding, technology, automation, restructuring staff, like what kind of discussion you have with these leaders?

Mohamed Mezghani [06:45]:

Actually, the pandemic had, and still having important impacts on public transport. You may remember that, most agencies lost 90 to 95% of the ridership during the first two, three months of the pandemic in 2020. Now after almost two years, they recovered, let’s say 60 to 80% of the pre-pandemic levels. The discussion happening also actually evolved with the different phases of the pandemic. So first it was about learning how to operate in this new context for which the sector was not prepared at all. I mean, this disinfection and physical distancing and all the things are new to public transport, then it was also about showing the essential role of public transport by making sure there is a continuity of operation during the lockdown. Then you remember that the cities were, were closed, but the doors of public transport remain open for everyone.

Mohamed Mezghani [07:49]:

And so it was very important to show the essential role of public transport. Then it was important also to advocate to get the needed financial support for the sector, because we have seen number of those, like the car industry, the tourism industry, for example, they got financial support from the governments, but public transport was like at the end of the list of sectors to be supported. So it was important for us to advocate for that. Then, the pandemic also offered the open opportunity to accelerate some projects in particular digitalization of the network. For example, we have seen a lot of contactless ticketing project that were implemented during this crisis because we want to avoid contacts during payments transactions, so these projects were implemented.

Mohamed Mezghani [08:42]:

Also, we have seen a lot of apps supporting the travelers, also scheduling of the service. So all of things lead to digitalization have been implemented during this pandemic. Then I would say one important issue was also about how to improve the resilience of the sector to be better prepared for future pandemics, but also better prepared for natural catastrophes climate events. So the pandemic made it clear and essential to have a resilient public transport system. Also, decarbonization has been on the top of the agenda. It’s not a new topic of course, but this crisis has confirmed the negative impacts that cars are having on our environment. Remember during the lockdown, these empty streets that made us realize how much space is wasted for cars, and it made it clear that sustainable mobility can only be achieved thanks to working, to cycling, to public transport and share mobility. So it’s one of the main lessons of this crisis. I would say these topics were discussed with public transport leaders, and advanced during this complex phase. And so as you can understand, the pandemic offered the opportunity to put mobility and public transport on the political agenda. And that’s really one great silver line of the crisis. And so, yeah, it was not just the crisis or just a challenge. It offered also a lot of opportunities.

Jaspal Singh [10:27]:

Yeah, you like mentioned, a lot of new invention happen during the adverse time and, and nobody can forget the images of clear sky and, you know, dolphins were in Venice river, when human were not there or we have no car on the street at all. This actually, very good segment to move to our next question, because I think you are one of the firm believer and user of new technology and processes. I mean, you love Twitter, and you love to adopt new technology. I always see someone who always try to see how it can be used in public transportation. And, and in fact, you have implemented a lot of new tools within UITP as well in last two years. How do you think, technology will shape up the future of mobility?

Mohamed Mezghani [11:12]:

I think technology first is an accelerator of changes. It offers opportunities to make, mobility more efficient, maintenance more productive. I’d say, public transport more customer focused, and we see the impact of technology. For example, in the decarbonization of transport through the electrification, through the introduction of zero emission vehicles, also automation is making public transport more flexible to operate and safer. So there are endless possibilities offered by technology and, those technology, those possibilities and opportunities really are making the life of the customers of the end users easier and making it easier to navigate in public transport systems and network, easier to pay, easier to get the information. So, there are lots of opportunities, but there is another truth that, technology remains a means to an end and it’s a tool.

Mohamed Mezghani [12:21]:

So we should not forget it. I mean, it’s an operational solution and not a policy in itself. So first we need to define policy priorities. We need to have clear strategies. We need to define the strategy level, I would say, and then see how technology can help implement the policy and it not the other way around. So sometimes, in some cases there are some policy makers that start talking about technology before even telling you clearly what their strategy is, what they want to achieve, and technology will not achieve and will not define what we want to achieve. We have first to define it ourselves and to tell others to define those objectives. And then technology will certainly be the good thing. With technology, it’ll make us do things quicker, faster, and even more efficiently.

Jaspal Singh [13:23]:

Thank you, Mohamed. You raise actually very good point about the technology. I love what you said that technology is the acceleration of change. And then technology is a tool. It’s not the mean, it’s not the end. It is time to move to next point, which is about, you are one of the biggest supporters of public transportation. And at the same time, you love to promote all innovations and all cities are very excited about autonomous mobility, ridesharing, and urban air mobility and all. Do you think both public transport and new mobility can coexist and grow together? I mean, there is a scope and space for the traditional transportation and new mobility to exist.

Mohamed Mezghani [14:02]:

I would like to say that the public mass transport is not just about mass transit for me, public transport is any mobility solution, which is publicly accessible, and which could be shared either over space. Like we are all in, in the same car or the same bus, or over time, like we have a vehicle which is used by different successive users, I would say, and this is how I define public transport. So it means it’s mass transit as the backbone. And this is very important complemented by shared and on-demand mobility solutions. And at the end, everything except the individual use of cars really, I would like to insist on that. It’s a wider scope of public transport, and we must reduce traffic congestion because we’ll need less vehicles since most of them will be shared or used collectively.

Mohamed Mezghani [15:00]:

So that’s my approach. I’ll say for public transport. And you mentioned autonomous vehicles, for example. So autonomous vehicles could be part of, of course, with the condition that they are not used individually, but part of a fleet of shared and on-demand shuttles, complementing mass public transport, which remains the backbone. And, and if you see, I mean, this vision actually put people at the heart because we support mobility system, we move people and not cars. We better use the road space in favor of people. And we, we free a lot of space, which is now used for parking, for example, and give it back to people. So I mean, the question, how do you think both words can coexist together? They can coexist. Of course. And, I think that key condition is that we define our mobility system by putting people at its heart.

Jaspal Singh [16:04]:

No, that that’s a great point. And I agree with you. I really want to highlight one of the report published by UITP about autonomous mobility, that it’s a great tool if it’s used as a shared mobility, not as individual mobility, indeed. You know, so that’s a great point. And I think now the biggest challenge, like you mentioned about new technology and innovations and all these kind of stuff. We are seeing a big demographic shift, you know, from baby boomer to millennial, to generation Z, and very soon generation alpha, people who are born after 2010, or you can say TikTok generation. I would love to hear your view on like how public transport agencies can attract new generation of passengers, because once people are getting old, how do attract them to bring to public transportation?

Mohamed Mezghani [16:53]:

If we look to those new generation of passengers, I would say contrary to the baby boomers, this new generation of travelers, they are born in a world which is not in favor of cars. Let’s say so increasing traffic congestion, growing pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, more road accidents, and so on. So they are born in that context and also more and more young people don’t want to take a license. We see it in many countries and because they have an increasing awareness, environmental awareness amongst those people. And also because there are more and more mobility solutions available to them. I just mentioned this combination between mass transit and on-demand vehicles, for example. So they have a diverse solutions from working to cycling to public transport to shared and on-demand solutions.

Mohamed Mezghani [17:55]:

So the young people, they see the benefits, this solution bring in terms of flexibility and availability, and, and they can personalize their mobility package based on their needs, which can vary from day to day or depending on the purpose of the trip, or, even during the day, they may use different modes of transport based on the purpose of the trip. And also they’re familiar with digital tools, which make all these solutions accessible at their figure trips. So, so you see, I mean, they are ready for that. They are ready for this combination of modes, I would say if we wanted to attract them in public transport in this shared mobility, and in this wider scope of public transport, I would say it’s also important to show them how public transit can help them in their life. Make sure the service are available to access their jobs, the leisure activities, not just during peak hours but also late evening and during weekends, because it’s important that they feel there is always a solution to their mobility need, because if we want them to avoid owning a cars and having a car, but jumping in public transport or in this On-demand mode. So in, in other words, I would say it’s important to make them think public transport as their preferred mobility choice.

Jaspal Singh [19:24]:

Yeah, that’s a great point. And actually you’re very right that they already have all the tools. It is just, they need to be incentivized by providing a service, which suit to their requirement, like providing late evening services weekend services when they use a more, that’s great. You know, in the beginning, you mentioned that you started working in MENA, and I would say when you started talking about public transportation in MENA, you are the only one, and, and you actually started a movement. Now we see big development happening in MENA. I would say both MENA and Africa, whole Africa region were not the good example of public transportation. But things are changing very fast and we are witnessing, seeing a big investment, you know, in Dubai, in Saudi Arabia will launch one of the biggest Metro system in one go, nobody has done that ever. Similarly Africa seeing a lot of technology. What do you think, how the public transport landscape will change in these region in next 10 years? What are the potential you see in both men and Africa?

Mohamed Mezghani [20:25]:

Yeah, indeed there is an amazing development of public transport in the region. But I would say there are also differences between counties in the MENA region and in Africa in terms of evolution of mobility, some of the countries in particular in north Africa. And if I take Tunisia, for example, my own country. Those countries, they have a tradition of public transport. They have a history of public transport is not new to them. Other countries, and especially in Africa, the mobility system is based on informal transport or used to be based on informal transport. And more recently, we have seen the development of large public transport projects such as in the Gulf countries, but also in South Africa, in Egypt. In Senegal, they have recently integrated suburban rail system, for example.

Mohamed Mezghani [21:17]:

So this reflects in increasing awareness that cities need public transit as the backbone and an increasing awareness amongst the policy makers also in these countries. And even those which were designed around car users like cities like Dubai or Doha, where the cost of oil is very cheap and hence the use of cars. They have revisited their priorities to develop public transport systems. So it’s a very positive development. Also, what’s interesting in the, at, in all those cities in MENA, and also in African cities, some of them, they opted for the latest technologies, the same ones implemented in Europe or in Asia, and for some of them even more advanced technologies. And this is a new, I mean, public transport use to be seen as the mode for those who have no choice. Now it is not seen anymore as a low-quality service for low-income people, but the solution which contributes to the development of better quality of life. The solution that boosts the economy and really what is happening now in the Gulf. For example, in Morocco they are putting investment in public transport it’s because they really believe public transport will develop the economy and will improve the quality of life of people.

Mohamed Mezghani [22:49]:

So this is a major change in the perception of public transport by policy makers in those regions. Also one important element is the increasing use of apps for ride-hailing services. For example, in this country, some of them also develop locally by locally startups. So this is also a very new development. So I would say definitely, I mean, public transport has a bright future in this region and will develop rapidly in the coming 10 years. And I’m very happy of this development because, it shows that public transport is universal, is not exclusive to one region or to a certain category of cities, but it’s a universal solution for everyone.

Jaspal Singh [23:36]:

Yeah, I agree. You really touch the important point that how public transport can help economic development of the city. And we are seeing happening in Dubai and Riyadh and, and some of the cities, which has low cost of oil, but still they are relying more on public transportation. I just want to touch base one important point, which is personal to you as well. I mean, not many people know that you are a researcher at heart. You love to do research and understand topic. You did one study on electronic ticketing in public transportation in 2008, long back. In that study, you cover about NFC, smart cards interoperability. I mean, nobody was talking about those things at that time. People were not thinking at that time which is happening now. Many things have really changed. What’s your view on ticketing? You mentioned about the contactless ticketing adoption during the pandemic and so what’s your view on the future of ticketing and mobility as a service, which is a buzzword everywhere. You know, we hear about MaaS everywhere. What do you think, the future of this?

Mohamed Mezghani [24:44]:

You know, I’m myself surprised because people are still contacting me regarding this study of 2008, because it’s somewhere on internet.

Mohamed Mezghani [24:56]:

I still receive emails from people saying, would like to have a discussion with you about ticketing, smart ticketing. But I tell them, look, I have not involved anymore as an expert in this field that, so I cannot do the same thing. I did some years ago, but yeah ticketing is an important tool in making public transport more attractive. Of course, it’s obvious if people struggle to understand how it works to get the right ticket, they will refrain from using public transport. So, it’s important to use, for example, you mentioned electronic ticketing. It offers the opportunity to make it simple to access public transport, even if you don’t know in detail, how the fare is calculated, you think about Smartphone for example, about mobiles.

Mohamed Mezghani [25:48]:

You don’t know the details about how the fare is calculated, but it’s so easy to use your smartphone. So public transport should be as easy as using the smartphone and electric ticketing contributes to that. And there are many examples of cities which increase the use of public transport, thanks to smart ticketing in London, in Hong Kong, in Singapore. I mean, these cities implemented. And since the future of mobility depends on the capacity to combine mass transit, with shared and On-demand services. It’s then essential to have a ticketing system that supports this approach, and this is where MaaS — mobility as a service is and you are right to mention this. MaaS is the tool that will make booking and paying possible for all modes combined. And, and it makes it possible at the end to plan and pay door to door and not just station to station.

Mohamed Mezghani [26:49]:

And, and this is important because the moment of truth I would say is when you are at home or in your office, and you have to decide which mode you are going to use. And if there have already the possibility to plan your trip, to pay for it, door to door, then it’ll make it easy to opt for public transport. And that’s what MaaS can bring to the people. So at the end, people insist again. They will not need to own a car if, because there will be always a solution to answer their expectation and, the MaaS can offer that. So MaaS has a great potential but needs a spirit of collaboration and trust between the different stakeholders, because MaaS involves a lot of stakeholders, mass public transport, of course, but also on-demand mobility systems, etc. bike sharing, car sharing. So we need the collaboration and the trust between different stakeholders to make it easy. And I insist on making easy, cause if it’s easy, people will use it. And that’s how I see the potential of MaaS.

Jaspal Singh [28:00]:

That’s a great point, you mentioned. I really love what you said from station to station, to door-to-door that that’s MaaS can build. And it’s all about trust and collaboration. One question as being a secretary general of UITP, and you mentioned, we have member in hundred countries, and you keep traveling. I know because of travel it stopped. But you are like a global-trotter, and you travel so many countries around the world. So in short, I can say you are like a global public transportation expert. What do you think different countries and continent can learn from each other?

Mohamed Mezghani [28:32]:

You’re right to say, I’m global-trotter, I have been working actually in an international context for my whole career since I started except the first two years, actually. So more than 30 years now working in an international context. And one of the lessons I learned after visiting, hundreds of cities is that, there is not one city or one country or one continent, which has succeeded in every aspect of mobility or, public transport. So that’s why, I don’t like when we speak about best practices. For me, there are only good practices. There are good practices, cases everywhere in the world. And we can learn from every city, every country and every continent. So, as I said, there is no such best practices, but only good practices, because there is always something missing that you can learn from another city. The perfection doesn’t exist in public transport or in the mobility field. And, also what I learned is that all those who say, this is not possible in my city. Or they say, we have cultural specificity, which prevent us to change. You know, I mean, these people who are inventing reasons for not doing things.

Mohamed Mezghani [29:56]:

And there is always room for change and improvement, but sometimes it needs political support. So when they say, we have local specificities, blah, blah, blah. It means we don’t dare to change. Not, we cannot change. You can change, but you have to dare. So, and having said that also the learning experience should consider the institutional arrangements, the regulatory framework. For example, the historical consideration that in some cases prevent to replicate projects because, we can see a very good project in one city, but it’s not that obvious to replicate it in the same way in my city, because the institutional context is not the same. Because you know, the regulatory framework is different. So it means that those projects need to be redefined considering the local conditions, but there is always a way to do it.

Mohamed Mezghani [30:51]:

So, and that’s what one of the, of the lessons I learned really is that, you can get inspiration from any city in the world from any continent, and I’m happy to see that the good practice cases they could be in Bogota for BRT, for example, or in Singapore for the role of transport authority or in Moscow for the number of electric buses they have there, or in Nigeria, in Legos have redefined BRT locally by having creating this concept of light BRT, for example. So, you see there are, now I’m happy to see in Dubai, they have the longest driverless Metro system in the world. You see this everywhere, and that’s the beauty of public transport. Again, it’s a universal solution.

Jaspal Singh [31:49]:

Oh, that’s, that’s thank you for sharing this line. Now I’ll never say best practices. I always say good practices. Sharing such good examples, like you are actually right. You know, it’s like pandemic has shown that and I think UITP champion in that perspective sharing lot of knowledge from across the globe, good practices from different countries with each other. So that’s a great point. A lot of people don’t know that you are a big fan of football and I really love the way you draw, the business and leadership lesson from the game. I mean, you bring some remarkable lessons from football for the leadership, for the management and all. What do you think the football can teach to leaders in mobility sector?

Mohamed Mezghani [32:34]:

Oh, football,

Mohamed Mezghani [32:37]:

I’d say that Football is a school actually, where we can learn a lot about leadership, about team, organization, about teamwork. So I was saying, and not just leadership in mobility can learn from football, but any leaders, for example any company. A company is a team of people, like football. If we want players to play well together, they need to practice, they do it like by the way, on a daily basis to be ready for the match. Yeah. And this is to say also that training is essential at all levels of the company, practicing training, you know, it’s important and you can never say , I have learned everything. No, you have to do it to do it. And even those, the most professional football players, they have to do it every day. Even those stars, they have to do it every day in football.

Mohamed Mezghani [33:31]:

The objective is clear it’s to score, to win the match. It’s the same in a company. It must be clear to all employees. What are the object we are pursuing? Well, the company is headed to, so it’s important for a leader to express those objectives and share them with the employees. And sometimes you find in companies where employees say that they don’t know at the end, why we are doing this, where do we do we want to. A coach of a football team. of course he or she manages the team. They define the strategy for the game. They motivate each player to make them give the most of themselves, but the coach doesn’t play in the team. The, so that’s how a leader should behave by the team, but not doing by himself, by keeping himself out of the game and, and making the players feel responsible, feel comfortable of, of what will be, what will be done.

Mohamed Mezghani [34:34]:

They are the one who have an impact on the final result, the coach can only be there to coach them, of course, to motivate them, to give them the tools to perform better. And there are many of such examples in football. I have always been interested by two characters that are not those who generally attract attention of the majority in football. First the goalkeeper. Yeah. We often speak about the stars in the game and in the team, but we rarely mentioned the goalkeeper, but I love goalkeepers. For me, they are the last bastion of the team, you know, he is the one who in charge of the ultimate defense.

Mohamed Mezghani [35:30]:

He strengthen the defense, he safeguards the house and he has an overall vision of the game. You know, when you are a goalkeeper, you see the whole pitch. So you can, you can have a vision of the game. And when I was young, I used to go to the stadium and I like sitting behind the goalkeeper to put myself in his shoes. And it was my way to be a goalkeeper. And the other character, I have always been interested in is the coach – the trainer. The one who, who defines the strategy for the game, who finds the right words to motivate the team, who invents the right formula to make people with different origins, different ways of playing, different mentalities, different ages, different experiences, play together and give the best of themselves for the benefit of the team.

Mohamed Mezghani [36:22]:

And that’s exactly what a leader is expected to do in his or her organization. Think about the company, you have people from different nationalities, different mentalities, different culture, but, you know, you need to find the right magic formula that will make them for the best. And I am impressed by a coach who takes the lead of a team and makes this team progress and eventually win. You know, they start from scratch almost, and they progress and win. And the coach who define at the end, the right strategy and succeed to win and stronger teams think about competitors of company. For example, these stronger teams, they dares to change the position of a player, reorganizing a team, reorganizing the company, replace a player by another one to make the team win.

Mohamed Mezghani [37:13]:

And, and this is for me, something very inspiring that I learned from football. And, and there are coaches even that who have invented the new ways of playing, who made us discover new players who made us discover new talent. That’s also one thing we can learn from football. So my dream was not to become a good field player, but to be goalkeeper or coach in football. And now, of course, I am not a professional footballer, but, in my position, I feel myself like the coach of football team. I love that. So just pause, you wanted me to talk about public transport, and now I’m talking about football

Jaspal Singh [38:01]:

Kind of lessons and the kind of thing you brought from the game. It’s remarkable and that’s important. And if you allow, I may ask the follow up question, you know, you said you love goalkeeper and nobody recognized the importance of goalkeeper. And you shared one story, a recent game where the goalkeeper actually scored. Yes, he came forward and he scored for the team. And I really love where you mentioned that during pandemic, that’s a goal of every employee should be not to be stand in one corner, but come in the front and play and all, what do you feel who should be the goalkeeper in the company? Is it the CEO? Is it the every employee should the goalkeeper, who should be the goalkeeper in the company?

Mohamed Mezghani [38:37]:

When I talked about the goalkeeper, I said, well, something I like is that the goalkeeper is the one who have a, a view on the whole, on the whole team, you know, cause he’s in a position or he can see the, the whole pitch. And, and it means that from type of time, we have to take some distance to observe. And, if you are always doing things without taking time to take distance, to think, to see things from different perspective, you know, you can’t the change the way, you are doing things so everyone can be one of those goalkeepers. Yeah, that’s possible for everyone indeed. But for heads of departments, the chief officers, they have to put themselves in this kind of situation more often than someone who is an expert in this field or, or someone who is a general manager, where these people, they are more in the production and less in the reflection.

Jaspal Singh [39:49]:

That’s a great point. You have so much to share. I have one more question for you and it’s actually, you have a mission, a lot of people don’t know, to involve women in the public transportation and  in mobility sector. A lot of people don’t know, you have a clear policy about manel like you will never participate in a panel where there is no woman speaker. It’s a personal mission. I must congratulate you because in last two years, we have seen a remarkable change in situation. What do you think, what’s stopping the female executives to participate in mobility sector and how it can be done? How one can promote more female executives in the mobility sector?

Mohamed Mezghani [40:30]:

Thank you for mentioning this because it’s a topic which is very close to my heart. Because I believe in the benefits of diversity and this diversity is of course, more women and men working together, but also diversity in terms of nationalities, in terms of, of profiles of people in general. And, that’s, very important. I think, if we want public transport to attract more women, if we want to, to have more women interested in public transport, it’s important that we profile also the sector that we need to provide it more attractive to women. We need also to make sure that, there is no bias when we interview people when we recruit, but making sure, for example, in a panel, when you interview candidates who have women and men in those panels, and not men only, I like this example of the transport company in Montreal, where they decided to have mixed panels.

Mohamed Mezghani [41:50]:

And once they took their decision, realize that they are hiring much more women in the company. So it’s a very simple solution. It’s about also being more attentive and more understanding to the specificities of women or to their family conditions sometimes because we all know, they are much more involved in their families than men. And so sometimes, we need to understand the flexibility they are asking, and this flexibility should not prevent them to grow in the company. And we have to accept this and also to understand that diversity is a benefit for the company. I mean, when we discuss topics and you have men and women discussing those topics, you come with much more opportunities, much more possibilities for the solution when you define the solution you are discussing.

Mohamed Mezghani [42:54]:

So that’s a very important, and we need also to fight this that some people have in mindsets of the, oh, but this is not for women, or this job is not good for women. No, no, that’s wrong. There is no job which is not good for women or a job, which good only for men. So we really, we have to our mind, and I would like to finish by sharing a very personal story is that, I was born in Tunisia, during the sixties, at that time, Tunisia was one of the countries among the Arab countries where the women condition were the most free compared to other Arab countries. And, this is the thanks to the president of Tunisia, who led the country in the fifties after the independence and who was one of the first to declare and to encourage the emancipation of women.

Mohamed Mezghani [44:12]:

And I was born in the family after five sisters. And I grew up in that family, seeing my five sisters succeeding in their studies and in their professional life. And I was not realizing at that time that they had to fight for that. You know, for me, I was seeing them succeeding. And it was obvious that this is how women are developing, and this is how women are growing in this society. And I discovered later that they had to fight for that, that it was not obvious for them. And so I learned from them a lot. I learned, and they inspired me, and it is one of the reasons also for me, it’s very natural to fight for women to have a better place in the society and a better place in public transport.

Jaspal Singh [45:11]:

Thank you for sharing this, and I really love your mission. And, we are seeing some change, you know, we are seeing, more and more female participation in events, in trainings and, and all other places.

We are at end of our discussion. So I have a rapid-fire question round, I’ll ask you five questions and you need to just answer it quickly. Just don’t, don’t think too much about it. Just say whatever, come to your mind. First question, if you’re ready.

Mohamed Mezghani [45:43]:

Okay.

Jaspal Singh [45:44]:

So, if you were not in mobility sector, what other profession you would have selected?

Mohamed Mezghani [45:52]:

Maybe, stage actor, a singer, a musician, uh, something, an artistic profession, I would say, a football coach.

Jaspal Singh [46:02]:

Oh, great. You can still be a football coach, you know, bringing some learning from leadership to football.

How many country you have traveled so far, and which is your favorite?

Mohamed Mezghani [46:13]:

I think 75 to 80 countries. The favorite is always the next one adjustment. The next one, I will just visit.

Jaspal Singh [46:27]:

That’s a great answer. So favorite public transportation network, which city has a best transit network?

Mohamed Mezghani [46:36]:

Yeah, I would say, I love London red buses, they’re iconic and so different from any other cities. Also, I love the Moscow Metro, for example, for it’s efficiency and it’s beauty. So, you know, choosing a favorite one is not that easy, but I would say London red buses and Moscow for the Metro really I love them.

Jaspal Singh [47:03]:

Oh, great. The next question will be difficult for you. Who’s your favorite business leader in mobility sector?

Mohamed Mezghani [47:09]:

You know, there is one person who inspires me and who impresses me is Jaime Lerner. He passed away last year is a, you know, who invented the BRT and is a Brazilian. He used to be the mayor of Curitiba, who was the first city where BRT was implemented. And actually, he invented the BRT. He got a budget to build the Metro. And he said, with this budget, instead of building, X kilometers of Metro, I will be built 10 times more BRT lines. And, he invented something which makes public transport system more affordable for every country. So, he came not just with the BRT, but with the new way of integrating between urban planning and, and public transport. And so really I had the opportunity to meet him and I really very inspiring and I’m learning a lot from him.

Jaspal Singh [48:14]:

That’s a great choice and the last question is, if you can change one thing in life, what would it be?

Mohamed Mezghani [48:23]:

In my life? I will not change anything I’m happy. And I’m lucky, but in life, you in general, I would say, yeah, anything that makes people healthier and happier. Of course, if I have the possibility to do that, I would, I would do it.

Jaspal Singh [48:40]:

That’s great, Mohamed. I mean, it’s so fun to talk to you and thank you so much for your great insights. You know, I really love this conversation.

Mohamed Mezghani [48:48]:

Thank you very much, Jaspal. I enjoyed very much talking to you.