Mobility Innovators

Khaled Shammout [00:00:00]:

We are at 85% of pre-pandemic ridership and still charging. Fair. So it’s not, we’re running that’s. So we’re, we’re, we’re charging full fare and we are at least 85% of pre-pandemic ridership. I think there are three factors that attributed to our ridership figures.

One is during the pandemic, we did not cut service. So, unlike almost all other agencies, or at least most other agencies in across the country, we did not cut a service. So that was a strategic decision from our CEO that no, we’re going to keep running a hundred percent service even on weekends, because we still have people who want to get to their jobs. People who wants to get to their hospitals, you know, medical fac facilities, not only as patients, but also as workers.

Jaspal Singh [00:01:06]:

Welcome to the Mobility Innovators Podcast.

Jaspal Singh [00:01:13]:

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Mobility Innovators Podcast. I am your host, Jaspal Singh. Mobility Innovators Podcast invites key innovators in the transportation and logistics sector to share their experience and future forecast. In this episode, we’ll be discussing the benefit of technology and innovation for public transit agencies in North America.

Our today guest is an amazing Transit enthusiast. He’s a Chief Strategic Planning, Development and Innovation Officer at Southwest Ohio Regional Transit Authority SORTA, or you can also call Go-Metro. SORTA is a public transportation agency that provides bus service in the greater Cincinnati area. He’s responsible for overseeing the development and implementation of agency technology and data-driven strategy. He also lead the development of SORTA long-term strategy plan and work to enhance the agency’s customer experience.

Prior to SORTA, he has worked with different agencies in the US, including Central Ohio Transit Authority, Jacksonville Transportation Authority, and Palm Beach County. He was also the Chief of bus transit team at Makkah Master Transit.

I’m so happy to welcome Khaled Shammout, Chief Strategic Planning, Development and Innovation Officer at Southwest Ohio Regional Transit Authority in Cincinnati. It’s now time to listen.

Hello Khaled. It’s great to have you on the show. Looking forward to learning from your experience today.

Khaled Shammout [00:02:38]:

Yes. Hi, Jaspal. Thank you for having me.

Jaspal Singh [00:02:41]:

Great. so today I’ll be spending time to talk about your professional journey, which is quite interesting, your book, which I really love, and your perspective on innovation in the public transit space, because there are not many people who will actually talk about this.

So, to start with, can you tell me a bit more about your background, which is very interesting, but I’m also interested to know any hidden fact about your career that is not on LinkedIn.

 

Khaled Shammout [00:03:09]:

Yeah, I think it’s easier to answer the first part. First, I went, I mean, to the Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio to study where I pursued architecture degree. As an undergraduate and then I did the Master’s in Regional Planning as well as a Master’s in Transportation Engineering. And then from there just you know, had had to have the opportunity to do an internship at the transit agency in Columbus, Ohio.

Jaspal Singh [00:03:41]:

Oh, okay.

Khaled Shammout [00:03:42]:

That’s, I guess how I fell in love with Transit and it’s been a pretty rewarding journey and after the Transit Agent in Columbus, I went into the private sector with the consulting firm where I was lucky enough to work on projects across the country, which gave me another quite a bit of additional experience. And then went to the public sector again in Florida, but also had the opportunity to work overseas twice, once in Abu Dhabi where I you know, helped establish the transit sector within the newly established Abu Dhabi DoT Department of Transport.

And more recently I was really offered a once in a lifetime opportunity to design a transit system from scratch in Makkah, Saudi Arabia. These kinds of opportunities really don’t come that frequently cause there aren’t too many cities that don’t have any transit. And to be really put in charge of creating one was you know, I mean opportunity I would’ve done for free. And it was a very rewarding experience. As for anything unique I think I have everything posted at LinkedIn. So, I can’t think of anything that’s unique really. I mean, if I think of something, I’ll let you know.

Jaspal Singh [00:05:39]:

Or probably during the discussion we’ll discover something. Like I discover about your experience with Abu Dhabi. I didn’t know that you work in Abu Dhabi as well and had to set up the new transit agency, because I remember when in Dubai and in Abu Dhabi, the whole planning and transportation focus on public transportation started there was these new agencies were created. So it’s great that you help Abu Dhabi to build that and Makkah, I can fully agree with you, there are not many cities where you get an opportunity to start something from scratch.

Khaled Shammout [00:06:11]:

Indeed, indeed.

Jaspal Singh [00:06:12]:

Yes. now, so I want to start our discussion with the transit recovery, because that’s a very hot topic. And to do that, I went to the Go-Metro SORTA website, and I found something very interesting on your website. You published month on month report of everything about the SORTA’s performance I can see about ridership trend, I can see the cost detail, I can see KPIs. I can also see, you transparently put about the driver shortage issue. All your success and failure are shared transparently with everybody. I mean, it’s amazing because I haven’t seen many agency who do that put everything in public.

The important thing I saw that SORTA is recovering quite well. I mean, you have already touched 85% mark, 85% ridership compared to 2019. It’s not yet a hundred percent, but it’s still one of the highest, I would say, in the country because in the US, not many cities have reached this level. And you also mentioned one of your route has already exceed 165% ridership level. So, which means it’s already crossed the pre pandemic level and growing. So I would love to know, what is your secret? What is the secret of SORTA, and what’s your plan for 2023?

Khaled Shammout [00:07:28]:

Great question and thank you for that Jaspal. Indeed we are really proud of our success story. And I just want to clarify that we are at 85% of pre-pandemic register and still charging fare. So it’s not, we’re running.

Khaled Shammout [00:07:52]:

So we’re charging full fare and we are at least 85% of treatment and ridership. I think there are three factors, right, that attributed to our ridership figures. One is during the pandemic we did not cut service. So unlike almost all other agencies, or at least most other agencies in across the country, we did not cut a service. So that was a strategic decision from our CEO that no, we’re going to keep running a hundred percent service even on weekends. Because we still have people who want to get to their jobs. People who wants to get to their hospitals, medical facilities, not only as patients, but also as workers, as well as to other jobs where, you know in the service and industry, whether it’s the grocery stores and warehousing and so on.

Khaled Shammout [00:08:58]:

So that was kind of a strategic decision on our part. There was only one month where we reduced the service, you know, slightly, but that was just one month, if not less than a month. But we kept running a hundred percent that I think helped us maintain our riders. I mean, at the beginning of COVID ridership plummeted to about 50-55%. It’s not like we kept carrying the same amount of people, but despite that, it still gave the confidence to the passengers that transit, is they still there? I may not be riding it today because I’m not going to the office anymore, but I know that transit is still running, and I do not need to make any different transportation arrangements down the road. So that was, one of the main factors because had we cut service and the reduced service didn’t meet certain individual’s needs.

Khaled Shammout [00:10:00]:

Obviously, if they have to get to work, they were, if they would’ve found some other means to get their buy a car and so on. And if they do that, they’re not coming back to transit lost. You’ve lost. The other piece to that is we also redesigned portions of our network to make it more efficient and save some resources, drivers and buses. And then we took these resources and actually added service with them. So amazing. We ended up having more revenue hours and more revenue mic than before Covid. And again, those were also strategic you know, decisions. One is we were trying to implement our new system redesign doing it, phase by phase, but also phase one and phase two of these additional services that we added were directed at what the Covid environment needed at that time.

Khaled Shammout [00:11:07]:

So we converted seven routes to run 24 hours, and those routes would hit the major hospitals because they’re open 24 hours. You have third shift people there, and also the warehousing and the manufacturing areas where you have second and third shift. And those were also all critical things. You know, where they did not stop during Covid, right? Yeah. so we added weekend service, Sunday service improved frequency a little bit during the weekdays. And we had two sets of these improvements. And you cited earlier that one of the routes is about 167% of pre-covid ridership. And this particular route, in addition to five other routes, five or six other routes that have exceeded pre-covid ridership. These are the ones that receive these kinds of improvements. So, these are the routes that received either 24 hour service, Sunday service, weekend frequency improvements, expanding this span of service and so on. So those routes that received these kinds of improvements exceeded pre-covid ridership, the other routes that received improvements are also doing very well, 85 to 90 to 95% and so on. I think the message of that, and that’s the kind of thing that we used, in our discussions here is that’s the proof, when they say the proof is in the pudding. Is that what that tells us is people want to ride transit.

Jaspal Singh [00:12:52]:

Oh yeah.

Khaled Shammout [00:12:53]:

People want to ride the buses, you know, so if you make it better, if you give them better service, they will ride. And hence when we converted this to 24 hour service, we added weekend, etc. They’re doing 134% of pre-covid, 167% pre-covid, 118% pre-covid and so on. So that was really a strong message for us. And that gave us, you know, the enthusiasm to keep making these additional improvements.

Jaspal Singh [00:13:22]:

Amazing. I mean, all your points are so powerful and I agree with you. People want to use transit. Why not? If you can get a good, reliable service Yeah. Who won’t take the car and drive and spend money on, on gasoline. I mean, people want to reach cheaper, faster, and more reliable way. And by not cutting service. I can imagine it must be a very strategic and big decision because many agencies face financial pressure and first thing they do to reduce cause they cut the service. So it would be a very big strategy decision at that time. And I can imagine like taking that decision by the CEO and the team. It must be like really a big statement out think saying, we are not reducing service because people need to still travel and we’ll help.

Khaled Shammout [00:14:02]:

It was, it was indeed.

Jaspal Singh [00:14:04]:

Great. Now another big thing, which I’m big fan of SORTA, is like you rightly mentioned, 85% with fare. But what SORTA did, which is very unique, is you got approval about this Hamilton County sale tax or share in the Hamilton County sale tax. And actually it is now covering 60% of your overall revenue, which is amazing and it was approved in spring of 2020. So I think public transit is a social cause. So it helped to drive economic growth in the city, but even in the mid-size city of Europe and all lot of cities are not able to recover farebox and facing problem with the funding and not having support from the government and Grant.

Can you share the structure of revenue collection as it’s a very interesting model that you are still collect fare, but at the same time you have funding available through the sale tax and other mechanisms so that it can reinvest and what lesson you can suggest for other mid site toxicity. Because sometime people say, oh it can work in Cincinnati probably it’s not for my city. But do you want to share like how other city can follow this?

Khaled Shammout [00:15:15]:

Yeah. thank you. Yeah, let me just point out that our budget is about $150 million a year. Yeah. but we also have a special fund that we call Transit Infrastructure Fund which taught us about $35 million a year or so separate from the $150 million. And the transit infrastructure fund is mainly for roadway improvements, and we can talk about that more later on. You are right that in May 2020, we passed a levy, which helped tremendously, obviously. Before May 2020, most of our budget was dependent on income tax. So, anybody who worked in the city of Cincinnati would pay 0.3 cent in income tax that would go to SORTA. And this generated about $55 to $60 million a year and back then our overall budget was about $105 million.

Khaled Shammout [00:16:21]:

You know, up until 2-3 years ago, the income tax that we were collecting $55-60 million a year was not enough to maintain the level of service we had at that time, let alone expand our service and add new services and facilities. We knew we were way behind in all of that. So we had to go out to the public and basically we needed more money so we can expand the service, make improvements, etc. And the levy that we introduced will stop the income tax. No more income tax than the 0.3% and instead we will have a countywide sales tax that, you know, 0.80 cent sales tax. That will come to SORTA. However, 0.6 of the 0.8 will go towards operating the buses for the transit agency. And the difference, the 0.2 cent will go towards the transit infrastructure plan.

Khaled Shammout [00:17:35]:

To help improve roadways, sidewalks, and so on, which will also help transit because you’ll have better roadways, better sidewalks, you know, connectivity plus and, and so on. So that 0.6 that we are keeping for operating the buses is generating about a hundred million a year. So that’s about 45 million increase from the income tax. And this additional revenue was key to all of these improvements that we’ve done in the past couple years and everything else that’s coming in the near future. And whether it’s for adding the new additional services, modernizing our fleet, introducing bus rapid transit as well as introducing mobility on demand service and building new transit facilities. So this is what the sales tax is doing for our communities, allowing us to provide all of these enhanced services. The difference between the two models, the income versus the sales tax, the income was constrained to only those who worked within the city of Cincinnati.

Khaled Shammout [00:18:52]:

The sales tax is countywide, so anybody, whether you live or if you’re a visitor and you’re spending money in in Hamilton County, you’re going to pay that sales tax. That’s how it’s generating. I think one factor that really helped passing that levy was, the combination of two things. One is we needed better transit system. I mean, the committee believed that they need better transit system, and the other piece was the transit infrastructure fund. So you know that’s going to improve the roadway for everybody the sidewalks, intersections and so on. So everybody was benefiting from that, even if you don’t ride East Transits. But the main message that we had at that time wasn’t focused on improving transit. The message for the levy and the message that we’re carrying on right now as part of our reinventing metro is about is economic development.

 

Khaled Shammout [00:20:07]:

So the message that we’re driving, so if you go to our website and you look at our reinventing metro and all presentations that we do at public hearings and public meetings and so on, the first thing we talk about is reinventing Metro, is about economic development is about you know, I bringing new businesses to our community is providing better access to more jobs. Providing access to higher paying jobs and investments as well as, mobility for everybody, etc. And then to do all of that, we need better transit system. So even if you don’t write transit and you’re a business owner that your employees need to use transit to come to and to work. So you’re going to support that message, you’re going to support that levy even though you really don’t write transit. So that, it was that combination that really helped us pass that levy and get the support of the community.

Jaspal Singh [00:21:18]:

It’s so powerful and that’s what I feel Transit agency need to focus on branding sometime, because if you just go out and say, Hey we need money for buses, people will probably not agree to it, and they, they see as a burden. But instead of saying transit, but you focus on the bigger picture and which is very true. I mean, transit bring prosperity to the city and economic development. I was talking with one of the city where they are looking how they can attract new employer, and the first thing employer ask is, do you have transit for my employees to come? Exactly. If you don’t have, how will I set up my business? Because many of them can’t afford cars and many of them can’t. And they live outside the city because they can’t live in the city. They can’t afford to live in the city. So they live outside. They need to come. So do you have transit? And if their answer is no, the business will never come. So it’s really powerful. And one thing I wish after listening to you is like, how can we just replicate this model to all other transit authorities? I know it’s not easy, but anything you want to say? Like, how can you do that?

Khaled Shammout [00:22:25]:

I wish it was easy. Believe me,

Jaspal Singh [00:22:28]:

Probably we need to create your clones and send to each city.

Now, other thing which I really found interesting from your profile, and actually thanks for sharing that copy. You know, last time you gave me the copy of your book and I was very curious okay, you have wrote a book. I thought it’ll be probably talking about transit and buses and all. And I start reading it and I completed the book in a day. Generally I never do that because it’s, it’s hard to focus. I left everything. I didn’t do any work that day. And I just read the book and the title of your book is The Implosion of Public Transport and Case for Infinite Game. And I was like, what is this infinite game all about? So would strongly recommend everybody to read that book. I’ll share the link in the notes now.

I want to know, what do you mean by the infinite game for the public transit and what inspired you to write that book?

Khaled Shammout [00:23:24]:

First of all, thank you for plugging my book here. You know I really appreciate that and thank you for reading it and the kind comments you made. I started working on this book actually before Covid. So back in 2017 I started getting a bit uneasy about transit. I mean, I’ve been in the transit industry for 28 years now. So my entire career is in transit and as I said earlier, started in the public, then went private and came back to public. So I’ve kind of like seen quite a bit of it and I’ve seen the trends and so on. But I was getting a bit bothered in 2017 that things are not heading in the right direction, not necessarily for a particular agency but across the industry.

Khaled Shammout [00:24:29]:

And no matter whether it’s a small agency, big agency, and so and so on so, and I start thinking hard at really what are these reasons? And of course you can’t come up with an answer immediately, but, you know, for over months, just thinking about it and putting down some noise and so on. I thought at that time that I’m starting to put my finger on a few things just based on my experience and throughout my career. And then start, come up with an outline of the things I want to discuss in the book. And then started writing it fully after I’ve gathered all my information between 2018 and 2019. Yeah. In 2020, I wrote the book and published a very early part of 2021.

Khaled Shammout [00:25:33]:

Now the title of my book is made up of Two Phrases, which you already read. So The Implosion of Public Transit – that’s one. And the Case for an Infinite Game – that’s the other phrase. The first part, implosion of Public transit and I use that word implosion on purpose because the demise of transit is from within. It’s not other forces from the outside that are attacking transit on purpose or are actively trying to destroy it. It’s, you know, the destruction of transit is happening because we, the transit agencies and transit industry are failing to cope with the changings that are happening at every level. Meaning, you know, every level, whether it’s the new technologies, the serious use of data analytics, whether it’s the training and development of staff, the unique mobility solutions, etc.

Khaled Shammout [00:26:35]:

So at all of these different levels, and as an example, I think in my book I talk about, you know, the company, right? So it took SpaceX six years to put a rocket in orbit into the orbit from when it was started as a company. Same thing with Tesla, you know, took them five years to launch, you know, the first car. Yet we transit industry. We’re still trying to figure out, how to solve first and last mile. And we’ve been at it for like almost 20 years now. So it’s, you know, these things that are changing around us right? Around the transit industry, whether it’s the population demographics, the young generation, preferences, technology and so on. If we don’t change, then we will cease to exist. And this is what, you know, Jack Welsh, the former CEO of GE once said, you know, if the rate of change on the outside is greater than the rate on the inside, then you know, the end is near.

Khaled Shammout [00:27:43]:

And that’s why it’s the implosion. Cause we are not changing from the inside, and that’s why we’re in where we’re imploding on ourselves. So we have to do things differently. And the second phrase of the book and the case for an infinite game is that solution to prevent that implosion. And the infinite game really is the solution to our problems or at least what I perceive as problems, you know in my book and to succeed and turn the transit ship around we have to start acting with the mentality of an infinite game player. And in a nutshell, we have to make investments when they are not needed. And that has always been an issue for many industries, including transit for some obvious reasons. You know, they have, you know, funding and so on.

Khaled Shammout [00:28:40]:

But that’s really the crux of the infinite gay mentality is you need to make investments when you don’t actually need them. And we have to create that culture in the industry, in the transit industry. We have to create that culture that keeps reinventing itself and reinventing transit. We cannot wait for something happening outside of transit for us to react to, such as, now we have Uber, they’re competing against us. They’re taking our passengers. Now we need to find a solution. You’re already late in the game. If you’re trying to catch up, you’re late. By the time you know, you solve the Uber problem, something else is going to be popping up. And we keep playing that catch up game. Instead, we have to drive the industry. And we have to drive that environment around us. We shouldn’t be in a reactionary mode, rather we have to be in the driver’s seats. And, that’s where, you know, invest in the technology, invest in the training and the development and so on. Cause when it’s time that you need this, you have them and you can deal with whatever immediately. So that’s really the crux of the book really.

Jaspal Singh [00:30:14]:

I like that book also for one more reason which I didn’t share with you, but I want to share now is like, it’s also for a person, what you talk about in that book is the rate of change outside and rate of change inside is every human being. I mean, the world is changing, the technology’s changing so far. So as a human being, also we need to adapt to the new technology. If we don’t do that, we will go away and we will seize and that’s what I feel is it’s not only if you want to change the situation, you need to first change the people. And by changing, I doesn’t mean that you need to replace them, but it’s like re-skilling them. So investment in re-skilling, understanding and learning new technology, it’s not when you start that, like many agencies, I remember we did a training in 2019 on electric buses, and many agencies said, oh, we don’t want to implement for next 10 years.

Jaspal Singh [00:31:03]:

So it’s not for us. And I feel like what you need to learn now, if you really want to do in next five years, it’s not tomorrow. Like, you will learn and you go out in the market. So I think that’s a very powerful statement. I like I said, I strongly suggest everybody, that’s why I wrote a small article about that book so that people can understand what it is. But it has some of the great points and thank you for putting together your knowledge and experience of 28 years in such a small and condensed way, I would say.

Khaled Shammout [00:31:33]:

Thank you. Yeah. I wanted to make it short so it’s easier to read.

Jaspal Singh [00:31:37]:

I love that because people don’t want to read stories. It has to be short, it has to be to the point. And that’s what the whole point is. So now the other point I want to discuss with you, which is all the transit agencies, not only in North America, but everywhere around the world is facing problem is a staff shortage. After the pandemic every agency has a driver shortage issue, workers issues and the manpower issue. And again, kudos to SORTA, because I saw your report and you transparently share how many trips you are missing every day because of the driver shortage. And it’s around hundred trips per day. Even though your performance is very good because you are doing 95% of operation but even if you solve this problem of manpower, your performance will be 99.5%. So it’s like causing such a big dent in the performance just because of staff shortage. So it’s a big challenge. Everybody understand that we are facing problem with the driver and the operators and all.

Now what are the step, you are falling to address this challenge? Because a lot of agencies want to solve this problem in six months. And I tell them it’s a long-term problem. You can’t just solve it in six months. And do you think it’s a long-term issue? Or how will we address this challenge?

Khaled Shammout [00:32:55]:

Another important question Jaspal, and thanks again for this. You know great questions. I mean, we’re just like anybody else, we are having driver shortage issues. We’ve been suffering from that for the past couple years or so. And, you know, the problem is really, is twofold, right? When it comes to missing trips and the level of service. First is difficulty in finding new hires, right? Yeah. But then also it’s the retention of drivers. So case in point, last year we hired 170 drivers. Our net we netted three because, you know, you have retirements, people retiring, people getting fired because they’re on their cell phone when they shouldn’t be, you know, on their cell phone or some other issues. So we hired 170, but we netted three.

Khaled Shammout [00:34:03]:

So retention is as critical as recruiting. So it’s, you know, these two issues that the kind of, you know, go hand in hand. And we tried to, we did few measures trying to entice more people to apply and work and we’re making some headway. We still have a longways. Just because that’s how the economy is now, nowadays I agree with you, that’s not a problem that’s going to be solved in the next 4 to 6 months. It’s probably going to take at least a year and a year-half, depending on the economy as well. But few things that we did that seem to be helping, one is we raised the driver’s salaries by 25%.

Jaspal Singh [00:34:50]:

25%.

Khaled Shammout [00:34:51]:

That was a big jump. It went from like $16 an hour to $20 an hour. This is starting. Great and that obviously helped somewhat. But we also relaxed the hiring requirements. So for example, you don’t have to have a CDL to apply. We will train you to get your CDL and we will pay for your CDL exam as well. And that’s worth few thousand dollars. We also restructured how we do the extra board. So to make it a little bit more attractive. Cause usually extra board, you have no idea when you’re going to be called in and what you know, when you’re going to drive or, and so on. It has its issues. So we kind of structured that more into shifts. So, you know, you can pick a shift for extra board and you just go there.

Khaled Shammout [00:35:51]:

So at least, you know, on every day I’m going to be there from this hour to that hour. I may be called on to drive. I may not be called on to drive, but that’s my shift. Just sitting there and waiting. That also helped people to at least structure their daily activities and their daily lives. So that, this kind of combination seemed to have helped a little bit. But we’re still having issues in recruiting fast enough basically but all the past I think three months or so have been relatively good months of recruiting. So I think we’re heading in the right direction, but it’s still going to be take a while until we are almost back to normal.

Jaspal Singh [00:36:48]:

Yeah, no, I agree with you. No, I was just saying, you know, there was a report by, I read a report by APTA. I would say that 45% of driver are the age of 55. So the outflow is greater than the inflow. So the challenge you’re saying is absolutely right.

 

Khaled Shammout [00:37:06]:

Yes. The one major reason for the large number of missed trips certainly, shortage of drivers is one factor. But in our case specifically, it’s due to absenteeism.

Jaspal Singh [00:37:26]:

Absenteeism.

Khaled Shammout [00:37:27]:

That’s what’s really driving the missed trips that high we’ve been dealing with that for the past, you know, several months. And it’s kind of like a bit more you know, under control. Now, if you check our January, and especially now in February number of missed trips have gone down drastically.

Jaspal Singh [00:37:48]:

Oh

Khaled Shammout [00:37:49]:

Amazing. Trying to keep that momentum. Hopefully we’ll continue that success. So that’s what we are we’re doing in that regards.

Jaspal Singh [00:38:00]:

No, that’s great. Thanks for sharing like how you recruiting people without the CDL, because it’s a barrier. A lot of people don’t know how to get the CDL and then investing that money to get a license because they’re not sure whether they will get a job or not after getting a cdl. So what you are reducing your lowering down that barrier, you’re hiring people. In fact, in your book, you also mentioned that we should hire more people with customer service experience and turn them into driver, because that’s a way you have a best driver on boat.

Khaled Shammout [00:38:31]:

Yes you’re absolutely right. Because those in the transport industry gets it because the driver is really doing two things. You know, he or she is driving a bus, but they’re also being as customer service, staff, right? I mean, that’s the first thing that passengers’ see, it’s very easy to learn how to drive a bus. Anybody can learn, right? Just, give them a few weeks, few months, they’ll learn how to drive a bus, but to be customer friendly and have the right attitude, that’s not so easy to teach, right? So if you recruit from that sector of the customer service or the service sector individuals who already have that quality. It’s easier to teach them to drive a bus and you have the best of both words.

Jaspal Singh [00:39:28]:

But the problem is people think other way. People think it’s easy to get the driving license, the customer experience than getting a driving license. But what you rightly mentioned, it’s difficult to have that attitude. Customer service, you should be passionate about transit because then the customer will use the bus again and again, I know if you go board a bars and driver give you a weird look, it will ever want to go back. But if you go into the bus and drive will have a fun with you, fun chat with you, welcoming, smiling face, people feel happy. And they feel safe.

 

Khaled Shammout [00:40:00]:

Exactly. Exactly.

Jaspal Singh [00:40:02]:

You know, some of the countries are thinking the automation can be one of the solutions to address this driver / operator shortage issue. Like some of the countries are doing pilot on autonomous buses. In fact, FTA recently released a grant funding for ADAS Automated Driver Assisted System program. What do you think about autonomous buses? Will it be good for Cities and can address this challenge? Or you think that’s not going to make big difference?

Khaled Shammout [00:40:31]:

No, I think, I mean, all of these solutions are good solutions, and they have their place. And that’s certainly something that’s on our radar screen, not in the short term. Just because we’re busy now, we are busy trying to finish the infrastructure that we have, right? The foundation of all of that. But no, I mean, autonomous buses, as well as, you know autonomous vehicles they have a role in the transit industry and in providing that kind of service, we just want to make sure that they can be implemented in a meaningful way and an efficient way as well. Some of these applications, it’s easy to do in certain areas in this country with certain infrastructure, it’s more difficult in other areas due to terrain, weather and so on.

Khaled Shammout [00:41:29]:

But I think ultimately we’re going to get there. I think federal highway thinks that by 2035 or 2040, something like that most of the vehicles will be almost autonomous vehicles. Just because, it’s going to take some time to weed out most of the other vehicles where you cannot retrofit the vehicle with you know the equipment to drive itself. So I think the nation and that’s where everything is, it’s heading in that direction. And we will get there as a transit industry. And there will be benefits. That doesn’t mean that it’s going to take jobs away from others. Those will be retrained, there’ll be used in other capacities and so on.

Jaspal Singh [00:42:33]:

Yeah. I agree with you and when people say it’ll take away job, I say, man, there are no drivers available. So it’s not a problem of job. It’s a problem of we don’t have people. So if you don’t have people, you have to use technology. It’s not possible to survive.

Now, one other thing, your role is and I’m very surprised seeing like you’re managing three different role in SORTA, innovation is one of your key role. And I’m really always passionate about technology and innovation in the mobility. And I see the use of big data, big analytics, data analytics, artificial intelligence, MaaS, blockchain etc. It’s going to increase. Now SORTA has launched various initiative. I’m curious to know how do you identify and evaluate new technology and approaches? Because one of the important point you made in the beginning is you need to be future ready.

Jaspal Singh [00:43:19]:

You don’t need to implement project or technology when it’s available. You need to think about it before it, it became available to everybody. So how SORTA take care of this future long-term planning. And one of the key challenge with the organization, with the transitions especially, is the change management. You know, you have people who don’t want to change, and you suddenly bring new technology to them and say, Hey, this is a new tool. We need to play with it. How do you manage this both balance of implementing technology and at the same time managing the manpower?

Khaled Shammout [00:43:56]:

Yes. good question. And it is an important area for us SORTA as well should be for all transit industry. As, as you said, I mean, I already mentioned that we have to invest, make these in investments in technology when we really don’t need them. But we need to get there in terms of what we are doing. One of the first things that I did when I came here to SORTA is, because I used to do that when I was a consultant. I created the strategic plan. Which encompasses all different technologies that we have that we are getting and that we need to get in the short term and the long term future as well.

Khaled Shammout [00:44:57]:

So that’s one complete document, strategic plan that talks about all of that, the impacts what’s going to have, it’s going to impact each department, the staff, the public and the agency, and what is anything else that we’re planning on implementing, right? In terms of services and so on. So that’s critical. But also in terms of how we use the data, it’s unfortunate that most transit agencies, we collect tons of data, but many of us don’t really use it to its fullest. We’re kind of like using, I mean, not even 10% of the potential of that data. We have to get deep into that. We have to have the right tools for that. Two things that, you know that we’re doing here at SORTA one is we are building a comprehensive dashboard Power-bi dashboard.

Khaled Shammout [00:45:59]:

So we have the infrastructure in place. Now we’re building the dashboard that will have pretty much every piece of data that we collect, whether it’s from your typical CAD/AVL on time data, passengers counting, arrival time, departure times, and all of that. But also from the finance department, from the procurement department, from maintenance, from operations, what have you. It’s there and it’s, you know, it eventually it’ll be open to every employee in the agency no matter what the rank is. Cause we want everybody to look at it and understand what’s going on a daily basis. It’ll be structured kind of like a tree map, easy to look at and figure out, you know, where the issues are within a second or two, right? But also we’ll allow you to drill down until you’ve tried to figure out, the con the what’s causing that issue, right.

Khaled Shammout [00:47:00]:

So that we can act immediately on this. So providing that developed data is an analysis is critical for any agency. At the same time at least in my area for the planning department, we are also automating the monitoring of certain data. So for example, the typical route, there’s tons of data that we’re collecting, right? In terms of on-time performance the dwell time of buses at certain bus stops you know, arrival time, you know, load factors and all of that. And sometimes, you know, these things fluctuate, right? And you’re collecting tens of thousands of these data every day because you have so many different routes, trips, etc. But it’s difficult to notice that at a particular stop dwell time has been increasing, right? Or for the past several weeks, dwell time used to be maybe like 35 seconds.

Khaled Shammout [00:48:05]:

Yeah. Now it’s two and a half minutes or three minutes. And that’s been consistent for the past two or three weeks. So we need, we’re building that, smartness into it to immediately flag it. Like, Hey, watch out. There’s something happening there, right? So we go and we look into it and we find law and behold there’s a new passenger there who’s in a wheelchair. And now by deploying the ramp and think that’s adding two or three, three minutes to the schedule. So we need to make adjustments to the schedule. So that the buses don’t, you know, count as being late, right. So we need to make these adjustments. And there are many of these examples, whether it’s deals with load factors and travel times, and all of that.

Khaled Shammout [00:48:52]:

So we need to keep building that intelligence to notice these variances and flag them immediately so we can react to the, before it becomes a problem. Again, in front game, you want to be ahead of the game, right? Yeah. So you fix it before it becomes a problem and before you get a black eye from the customers, right? Because everybody waiting at the next stop, like the bus has been running, three minutes late every single day, and I’m waiting here in the rain, right? So that, that’s the kind of things that, we’re working on and we want to see more of that happening as well.

Jaspal Singh [00:49:32]:

That’s a very important point to raise, like, we generate tons of data, but we never interlink those data like you mentioned, that’s a beautiful example. I never thought about the increase in dwell time because there is a new passenger and he need more support, but it impacting the overall frequency and the reliability. So probably you need to have better dynamic process to adjust the service level so that frequency doesn’t disturb, people get the buses at the interval, and I was thinking about how to link the data off your maintenance activity with your on-time performance. So sometime we don’t see the impact of maintenance activity on the on-time. So, there is a lot of thing one can do with the data and I agree with you. We are still scratching the surface. And that’s what I tell when I was, so I work with Uber for some time and I used to tell people why Uber car is there when you need it, because they predict, they don’t wait for the demand, put the car there.

Jaspal Singh [00:50:28]:

They already tell the driver that we are expecting so many people will demand from this area, and this many cars should be there. So it’s all about predictive analysis and data, and interlinking different things, and do it. Now my next question, I’m telling you honestly beforehand, I asked ChatGPT, what should I ask Khaled? And I got this question from ChatGpt. So I said, let me include and ask what do you think about it?

So SORTA has recently launched this new fare payment system, CinnyEZ Fare in partnership with Transit app. And that’s allow Rider to pay fair using the app. Now, ChatGPT wants to know, can you discuss the process of developing and implementing the system and how it has been received by the riders? Like how riders are liking it or not. The other thing it ask is like, what is your plan for future? Are you looking to implement open loop payment system? Are you looking to develop a MaaS application for Cincinnati? So what are the future goals?

Khaled Shammout [00:51:30]:

Yeah, so the fare payment app that we have is actually the Masabi app.

Jaspal Singh [00:51:35]:

Okay. It means ChatGPT is wrong.

 

Khaled Shammout [00:51:41]:

We’re just calling it Easy Fare. So there’s a consortium of public agencies in Ohio, and through that, you know, we contracted with Masabi and Transit app. So it’s kind of like a joint contract with both. So we have, these two apps, and actually you don’t need the Masabi app because through the transit app you can buy your EZ Fare, right?

Jaspal Singh [00:52:06]:

Ah, ah, okay.

Khaled Shammout [00:52:07]:

So the transit app is also connected to the Masabi one behind the scenes, right? And we want it just to simplify things for the user so they don’t have to jump from one app to the others. So you go to the transit app, you can plan your trip and then buy your fair, which is through the Masabi system. Anyway we did that back in 2019 and the implementation went very well. I was managing that implementation and we started it on October 1st, 2019. The since then, we’ve also retrofitted our vehicles with the card readers.

Jaspal Singh [00:52:54]:

Okay.

Khaled Shammout [00:52:54]:

Because the initial implementation for the first year, the passengers would show their cell phones to the driver, and they say, okay fine, you have the pass or the ticket, and so you’re board. But when we weren’t capturing the data, right? So we were successful in getting some grant money and we did retrofit the entire fleet with these readers. So now passengers scan, and they ride and we’re capturing that data and through, you know my staff and myself working with them, actually, we use this data, you know, the reader’s data, which you only scan when you get on, so you only have boardings data, right? But we managed to come up with a sneak way to figure out origin and destinations. Hmm. So we use, the reader’s data to generate origin-destination, which we use in our planning activities as well. And we’re pretty confident of that. The process that we’re doing, it’s not easy trying to link figure out we got here, get off there, but yeah may not be a perfect mess. So there’s but so we’re using that in that regard. Right now we’re working with the other agencies in that consortium to implement fare integration.

Jaspal Singh [00:54:21]:

Okay.

Khaled Shammout [00:54:22]:

We’re doing fare capping and also we’ll have the wallet as well which is, you know, I think pretty much everybody knows what that is, instead of buying it past, you can put 20 bucks on and then use it as you, right. So we’re doing these two things as well as in terms of the mobility as a service. And basically we are heading in that direction, the current app, just transit app. When you plan your trip, it gives you all the typical options – driving, walking, transit, Uber, Bikes and so on. We are right now in the middle of implementing our new Mobility on Demand service, which will start in May of this year in two zones.

 

Khaled Shammout [00:55:14]:

And then we’re expanded to four more. So right now, in the middle of implementing that, the vendor for the software is VIA, and they’re already working with Transit. So when you go to plan your Mobility on demand trip, you would still go to the transit app, and the transit app will give you the mobility on demand option among the other options as well. And then you can pick whichever option you want. And that’s the direction we want to maintain is. It’s one step right? You go there to that app, whether it’s transit app or whatever and you get all the different options you want, and from that app, you’ll pay your fare as well.

Jaspal Singh [00:56:01]:

That’s great. I think that’s very important because a lot of agencies don’t use the Riders data, the fare Collection data, and you’re using it for Origin-Destination. You can plan your route better, you can understand what is the demand, what time and which service. So I can imagine how you’re using it. The other important point you mentioned in the beginning is that SORTA is investing lot in BRT Bus Rapid Transit system. You are now investing in BRT corridor, and basically, you’re covering all the popular transit routes, each of which carry more than 1 million riders a year. So, it means you want to give a better reliability and service. Just want to understand, can you tell me the benefits and challenges of implementing this system? Because BRT used to be popular, then it went down, but I see a lot of cities in North America is now coming back and implementing BRT network and how it fit into the strategic plan of SORTA, because your strategic plan is how to provide better service economic development for the city. And, and if I may add one small point to it, are you looking to make this corridor electrified and automated, or you don’t have plan to go into that direction right now?

Khaled Shammout [00:57:14]:

So as part of our reinventing metro plan, the system restructuring and so on, one element of that is the BRT plus rapid transit. And in that plan you know, it identified four potential corridors for the BRT. All four seem to be conducive for BRT system. However, we can do all four at the same time. The just complexity of that, logistics of it and the cost, obviously. So we are doing a study we’re at the tail end of the study. We should finish that in the next two-three weeks. The study is looking at all four corridors, and we selected the first two we’re going to implement. So we selected two, which we made public, you know, in the couple months ago.

Khaled Shammout [00:58:09]:

And right now the consultants are just doing the alignment, the locally preferred alternative in terms of the alignment locational stations and so on. And we’ve been busy with the outreach for the past few days with that. So we identified the two corridors and then we’ll just follow the typical project management route, which is, the project development, construction, and then operations. Now, in terms of challenges, I think the biggest challenge would be having dedicated lanes, not for the entire corridor. And we realize that’s not going to happen. There are different limitations everywhere, but we need at least 50% or more to be bus lanes. So that’s going to probably be the biggest challenge. We have good relationship with the cities.

Khaled Shammout [00:59:08]:

That’s not going to be the main hurdle. It’s just right of way with some of these corridors, it’s a bit constrained, you know? And especially if we want to go in the center lane, that’s going to be a problematic you know, it’s going to be a problem just because again, the right of way. That’s where we see our biggest challenges are in most, I don’t want to say most, but in some other communities, one of the challenges is that the public outcry, right? It seems it’s the other way around. When part of that the BRT study, you know, I had assembled, what we call the stakeholders committee, stakeholders advisory committee. And that included mayors and city managers from the different communities along these four corridors.

Khaled Shammout [01:00:08]:

And when we made the announcement of which two corridors were select, one of the mayors got pretty upset and literally just packed up his stuff and left the meeting because his corridor was not selected. He wanted it there. And when we were doing the surveys, before that talking to the public, about what you know, where you know whether they want BRT and where they live and so on, and which corridors they would choose, I think it was 86% lived along the corridors that they picked for a BRT. So they wanted to be next door they live or work. So it’s not something like don’t bring it here. I don’t want it. They were embracing it. So the biggest challenge, as I said, would be getting the right of way for bus, for the bus lanes. In terms of, I think the last part you asked about the automation.

Jaspal Singh [01:01:13]:

I mean, are you looking to implement electric buses and autonomous fleet? Because if you have a dedicated right of way, that can be a good option for Autonomy.

Khaled Shammout [01:01:21]:

Yes. We are currently also doing an alternative fuel study. Because we realize that diesel buses that’s going to be the answer for the next many years to come if you can still buy them in 10 years from now. So we are doing a study that will help us determine should we go with battery operate buses or electric buses or fuel cell hydrogen. We’re not considering CNG, so it’s either hydrogen or electric. And we expect that recommendation to be made in the next month and a half. so I can’t tell you whether it’s going to be, we’re going to have electric buses or fuel cell. What I can tell you is it’s going to be zero emission.

Jaspal Singh [01:02:18]:

That’s great.

Khaled Shammout [01:02:20]:

In either case, going to be zero emission. I don’t know which of these tech two technologies, we will end up selecting until that study is done. In terms of automated buses, as I said earlier, that’s certainly something on our radar screen but not for many years to come. But that’s something that we are definitely interested, not only along the BRT corridors, but in other communities as well. You know, we have few neighborhoods where we think automated vehicles would be a good solution for these neighborhoods.

Jaspal Singh [01:02:54]:

Also, I think the challenge is the technology is not ready yet, so let the big city implement it and experiment, and then the mid-size city can adopt it because the cost of it.

Now I want to go back to your book. In your book you mentioned about that writing transit is not driven by the socioeconomic or demographic characteristic, but more by whether it means the individual preference, because generally transit agencies think other way. They just look at who is the demographic profile, how they live, and they just plant the service. And one powerful line, which is end of your book, is the successful list of a transit system is the percentage of choice riders, not the force riders, because there are a lot of people who are forced to use transit. But you said if you really want to call yourself a successful system, it should be the percentage of choice rider people who are using it. And you recommended that transit agency should use spatial analysis and shared many tools.

I love, in fact, I checked all of them, like how one can use that. Can you share more about this? And one I’m interested is to learn some use cases because you shared some of the interesting use cases. What could be the use cases of using special analysis and how it can be useful for transit?

Khaled Shammout [01:04:09]:

Yeah. now you’re making me too excited now.

Jaspal Singh [01:04:16]:

I can see that you love the, you love the point.

Khaled Shammout [01:04:19]:

Oh, yes. It’s one of my areas of expertise. So yeah. So regarding the first point in terms of the preferences, and you are right, that we, in the transit industry, when we’re doing analysis and so on, typically we look at the socioeconomic – demographics, densities and all of that and say, this is where,  we need to put service. And, that’s fine to a degree, right? But I’ve fell in that trap myself, right? You know, thinking that yeah, we can improve on this by doing some regression here and there and so on. But at the end of the day, it really doesn’t give the right answer because if you just look at the social economic demographic kind of analysis, there may be two neighbors, right?

Khaled Shammout [01:05:14]:

That are only, you know, a hundred feet or 30 meters apart, where one has to be at his job at [8:00] AM So he takes a [7:00] AM bus. Yeah. That’s only, you know, around the corner, right? His neighbor works at, at, you know a factory and, you know she has to be there at [6:00] AM which means she has to take the [5:00] AM bus. Yeah. But there is no [5:00] AM bus. The first trip is at, you know, [5:45] AM and it takes her an hour to get there, so she can’t use the service. Right? So even though they’re, they, they live right next to each other, they make, you know, each make $50,000 you know, they have the same, you know, characteristics, but their preferences is, is is different, right? So it’s works for one and doesn’t work for the other. On the other hand, I, you know, may be living in some really nice neighborhood making $150,000, and I would still, and I own four cars.

Khaled Shammout [01:06:26]:

Yeah. But I would still take transit because I care about the environment, right? So, My preference is completely different. Or in some cases, I really don’t want to deal with the stress. I can’t deal with the stress of driving and so on. I’m going to leave that to somebody else to do the driving while I read or answer emails. So, it has nothing to do with the socioeconomic and demographics. That’s if we want to be a really successful transit agency and have it a good system. So then you need to look at the preferences. What people prefer, what time they need to make their trips. Some people, if the bus comes once every hour, good enough for me. Right. Other people know I want the bus every 15 minutes.

Khaled Shammout [01:07:16]:

If I miss one, I’m not going to wait an hour. I’m going to wait 15 minutes. Fine. So these are preferences, the cleanliness of the buses, right. The information where the bus goes, how fa how fast it goes. You know, if I don’t have a car, I’m only making, you know, $25,000, it’s going to take me an hour and a half to get to my job. Well, so be it. Right? But others, they have different preferences. So and that’s the way of getting people out of their cars and onto transit, is you need to meet these preferences so that they will write, granted, there are a segment that will never drive, will never ride transit. And that’s fine. That’s, we accept that fact, but we have to meet people’s preferences to abstract them to transit.

Khaled Shammout [01:08:08]:

And that’s what I argue in my book. And that’s why I say the success of a transit agency should be measured by the percentage of choice riders rather than just total ridership. Because a captive riders have different preferences. Right? Than choice riders captive. One, they just need a bus to come and get them right to their destination. If there’s an hour frequency, I don’t care, if I have to walk half a mile, I’ll walk the half a mile I’m going to ride. No matter what choice riders, they have other set of references and needs. They want better frequency, they want clean buses, courteous drivers, information, entertainment, onboard the buses and so on. So the fact that you have more choice riders, it means that you are providing away better service. That’s meeting not only the captive rider’s expectation, but it’s also meeting the choice rider’s expectation. So that’s, I think that should be the measure, really.

Jaspal Singh [01:09:22]:

I love that point. that’s why I noted that point is like you need to, you need to have more and more choice rider if you really want to build a successful system. Sorry, you were adding something more.

Khaled Shammout [01:09:33]:

I think the last point, you, the last part of that question was the spatial analysis. And so with spatial analysis, and you know, more specifically, the modeling is, it’s a huge field, right? And for which hasn’t really penetrated into the transit industry in terms of practice, right? There’s tons of research out there like special optimization modeling and so on. Tons of research, but we haven’t been good at applying it. And, you know but I tried to do that where I work. So I’ll give you two examples. One example was at one of the transit agencies I worked, I looked at a confined downtown area in terms of bus stops. So we had, don’t quote me on these numbers, but I think maybe like some 200 bus stops within the downtown area, and that’s way too many bus stops, right?

Khaled Shammout [01:10:47]:

Because stoppage delays. Couple time and impacts and so on. So if we want to minimize the number of bus stops, how can we minimize the number of bus stops, but still serve all of that population, a hundred percent of the population, while at the same time making sure nobody is going to work, walk more than three minutes or four minutes, right? So you have these constraints or these limitations. So you could do that in different ways with optimization modeling. And it turned out that to still cover, I think it was 95 or 97% of the population, and nobody was going to walk more than four minutes. Instead of the 200 bus stops, you only need 112 bus stops. So it was like almost more than 45% reduction in bus stops. Well, that’s not only infrastructure,

Jaspal Singh [01:11:50]:

45%, that’s huge,

Khaled Shammout [01:11:51]:

Huge. almost 45% reduction. And you’re still covering almost a hundred percent. And nobody’s going to walk more than four minutes to a bus stop. Now, to do that manually, it’s impossible because you have millions of different combinations, right? And this is just looking at 200 bus stops. So imagine looking at, you know, your entire system with 2000 or 3000 or 4,000 bus stops, and you’re trying to optimize all of that. But the same can be applied to routing and other service areas. I talked about mobility on demand, that we are implementing mobility on demand right now. We did the study last year trying to figure out, you know, where we should implement mobility on demand. And I made it a requirement for the consultants to use special optimization modeling Okay. As part of their analysis. So they did involve a professor who’s, this is one of his specialties is transit special optimization.

Khaled Shammout [01:12:57]:

And we did use that technique and making sure that the zones are contiguous, then the most efficient shape for the travel and to minimize, you know, the travel times and the distances within each zone. So we did that, you know, we used that in, in our study. And these are the zones that we are implementing right now. But the application of spatial analysis and, you know, special optimization modeling is just, you know, limitless to when it comes to transit almost in every everything we can, we can use that.

Jaspal Singh [01:13:35]:

I agree with you. I mean, thanks for sharing these two use cases. And now I can see like, managing bus stop is a huge cost for transit efficiency, because if your bus stops are dirty, people create a negative impression about that. Instead of that have less bus stop, better service, and more frequent service. Even people need to walk for two – three minutes. That will be easier to access. But, but the space should be good. And if you have too many bus stop managing infrastructure, it’s another pain for transit agency. It’s not easy. So reducing 45%, that’s a huge achievement. I mean, that can reduce their cost for maintaining the staff can better, the buses can, don’t need to stop every stop, because that’s also delay the whole service acceleration and dis acceleration and then using this analysis. So thanks for sharing. It’s really nice.

Jaspal Singh [01:14:21]:

Like I said, getting some good practical example. It’s really nice. Now my next question is, you already share about your background that how you started in transit, like how you started your study at Ohio University, and then went to COTA and then went to Jacksonville and continued to work. You went out to private, came back to public work in Abu Dhabi and Makkah. So it’s a great experience so far.

Now my question is, what inspire you to pursue a career in public transportation and what has been the most rewarding experience in the field? Because if you’re continuing for last 28 years, there is something you must be feeling really proud of or some reward you’re getting. So beside money, because money is not keep you in the job. So what is your so far rewarding experience in the field?

Khaled Shammout [01:15:10]:

No, thank you. And I think I kind of like touch on the first part of your question. I think what in inspired me to pursue the career and transit, it was pure chance, right? So one day I’m sitting in the master’s course in transportation, and the professor says there’s an, an internship opening at COTA Central Ohio Transit Authority in Columbus, Ohio. And they need, somebody who, you know, from the program and was some programming capabilities. And I took several programming courses and different languages. And so it was just a hobby on my part. So I applied, I got the internship in the planning department there, and a few months later, I became a full-time employee and the rest is history.

Khaled Shammout [01:16:06]:

It was very rewarding. I mean, it is a very, very rewarding experience. In terms of the most rewarding experience. You are right, it’s not money. And to me specifically, yes, I’ve done tons of transit intelligent transportation systems across the country. I’ve designed and built transit centers, facilities, all over network redesign, all of that. These are great achievements, but I think the most rewarding thing for me is having developed my staff here and in my previous jobs, because I can see the successes that they’ve been having and where they are right now whether it’s in from Jacksonville or Abu Dhabi and even in Makkah and here as well. That really what makes me happy at the end of the day is seeing, all of these young generations and the impact that, I had on them. And I’m sure that they also have impact on me. I think that’s really for me, that’s the most rewarding thing.

Jaspal Singh [01:17:32]:

Amazing. In fact, you have put that line in your book is, which is from Marc Andreessen is a type manager, hire a type employee and the bad manager hire a bad employee because they don’t want to promote their employee. They don’t want to grow their employee. And I can see, and I can feel the sense of satisfaction because that’s how, I mean, you always need to leave the world in a better position. And how can you do it by creating, by sharing knowledge and replicating success across. So I love your point about helping others and building their careers and having best of employee under you and, and let them become a future manager so that they can grow and, and change the world. Exactly. Thanks.

And this is my last question. Because you’re a technology guy, so I just want to see how do you see the AI technology transforming the public transport sector in next 5 to 10 years? What are your prediction for next 5 to 10 years?

Khaled Shammout [01:18:37]:

Can I flip this? The, the question around and ask, how would transit transform AI for its needs? Again, kind of like related to one of my area, you know statements I’d like to see transit playing that role of driving things, right? Not being in the reactionary mode, but AI still has a major role in our day-to-day lives and activities and so on. But I also think that, again, back to the infinite game mentality transit need to establish itself in the AI arena as well. We have to set what we expect from AI what we expect from a AI to provide to us, right? For example, be it as simple as designing a customized travel itinerary. For individuals based on their specific preferences, whatever those preferences are, right? Just like Scenic view, not walking, more walking, walking, biking, you know, whatever it is, right.

Khaled Shammout [01:20:00]:

Time of day and all of that, all the way. So from these customized travel for individuals, but also all the way to intelligently designing whole transit networks that are most efficient and most productive. I would also like for the AI for example, take historical transit and traffic data and whatever other data. And to continuously tweak routes. I mean, we talked a little bit about the bus stops, the dwell time and so on, but even take it at the grandeur level, right? Tweaking routes based on the ridership, the changes in the developments around that corridor. Or changes and densities on the, if we’re able to get preference data from these residents and what they need but for the AI to keep tweaking these kinds of alignments, routes and location of bus stops and to tweak the network as a whole and schedules to provide the best service. It would also be beneficial for AI to also determine like in which areas fixed route is the best solution.

Khaled Shammout [01:21:29]:

Versus not so much fixed route in this area, but have flex route service, would be the better option or mobility on demand in this type of area. And for all of that, for the AI to start putting together for us, because that’s going to save us tons of resources that we can put somewhere else.

Jaspal Singh [01:21:59]:

Amazing. I love your point about it’s not the how AI will transform transit. It’s how transit want AI to work for you. And that’s more, I would say it’s very powerful statement because that’s where you be in command. Let exactly outside person to be in command. You became in command and you say, Hey, I have these problem. How can I use this technology and innovation to solve my problem? Exactly. Amazing. I loved our conversation, Khaled. So thank you so much for your time. I know you’re busy. Now we have this quick rapid question round and idea for that rapid is that we learn about, we learn about technology, but we now learn what more about you. And, and if you’re ready, I’ll start asking this question, and want to know how do you feel and think.

Khaled Shammout [01:22:46]:

Alright, I guess I’m ready.

Jaspal Singh [01:22:49]:

My first question, and I think it’ll be difficult for you because you never thought, or I don’t know if you ever thought about it, that you feel you were not in transit sector. What other profession you would’ve selected?

Khaled Shammout [01:22:59]:

Oh, that’s an easy one. Architect. Oh, it is architect. That has always been my passion and that’s why I started architecture and undergrad.

Jaspal Singh [01:23:07]:

Yeah. But, we steal you from architecture to transit, which is good for us.

Khaled Shammout [01:23:12]:

I still get to do both. So I’m happy

Jaspal Singh [01:23:15]:

Now you work and you travel around the world. I would love to know which is your favorite city in the world?

Khaled Shammout [01:23:23]:

Well, I happen to live in Vienna, Austria when I was a teenager. So by far its Vienna,

 

Jaspal Singh [01:23:32]:

It’s my favorite. It’s lovely city. You can survive with transit and go anywhere. Now you wrote a book and it means you also must be reading a lot. So which is your favorite book or podcast or both?

Khaled Shammout [01:23:47]:

Well, this is this, this is a tough one. Not to brag, but in my personal library I have 3,500 books.

Jaspal Singh [01:23:56]:

3,500 man. I used to feel proud. I have 50, but now I feel shame.

Khaled Shammout [01:24:07]:

You have to start from somewhere. But if I have to choose one, I think it’ll be the Koran.

Jaspal Singh [01:24:15]:

I haven’t get a chance to read it, but in my home I have a copy of Koran. I want to read it. I probably will discuss with you.

Now my next question is, what one thing do you wish you should have learned early in life?

Khaled Shammout [01:24:33]:

Probably play a musical instrument.

Jaspal Singh [01:24:35]:

Yeah.

Khaled Shammout [01:24:36]:

Yeah. I mean I’ve been teaching myself for the past 30 years, but it’s not easy at that age

Jaspal Singh [01:24:43]:

It’s

Khaled Shammout [01:24:43]:

Not, I’m sure had I learned it at a much younger age, it would’ve been much easier. But playing a musical instrument,

Jaspal Singh [01:24:51]:

I don’t know, it’s a word of encouragement for me or a warning because I just started learning an instrument few months back. So I don’t know if I should continue.

Khaled Shammout [01:25:01]:

We can talk about this.

 

Jaspal Singh [01:25:04]:

My kids, they’re four, they’re learning now. So now I feel they can understand much better than my last question. Khaled, if you can change one thing in life, what would it be?

Khaled Shammout [01:25:19]:

That would be probably, if that’s like a general question.

Jaspal Singh [01:25:24]:

Anything, it can be personal, it can be general, anything.

Khaled Shammout [01:25:27]:

Yes. You know, for people to have more compassion.

Jaspal Singh [01:25:34]:

I love that. I love that. I think that’s what need today more compassion. I was talking with my wife yesterday and she was saying something about her office and I said, sometime people have bad days, people have problems. So we should have more compassion towards other and try to understand. It’s not same for everybody. So I love that point and I can relate to it why you love Quran, because that’s what Quran teach you. To have more compassion Indeed and love for everybody.

Thank you so much, Khaled. I really enjoyed our conversation. I love all the point you shared and all, I’ll put your book detail in the note, and I encourage people to read it and enjoy it. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge.

Khaled Shammout [01:26:17]:

My pleasure and thank you for having me, Jaspal.

Jaspal Singh [01:26:20]:

Thank you for listening to this podcast. We’ll be inviting some other inspiring guests in the coming week. You can subscribe to this podcast online to get the notification for the next episode. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to give us a five star rating as it’ll help us to spread our message. If you have any feedback or suggestion for this podcast, please do write to us at info@mobility-innovators.com. I look forward to see you next time. Thank you.