Mobility Innovators

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:00:00]):

So we went for a technology called ETCS 2, the European Train Control System, which is a interoperable system, which has open source. So that gives a lot of flexibility. It is vendor agnostic. So, I can go for a onboard system by one vendor and the On track system by some other vendor. So not only this means when we go for the second and third call in future. So interoperability for those can be a certain because it’s a diagnostic. Whereas today in many systems, if you are to go for any extension of a line, a small extension, you have to go back to the same vendor for signal. Otherwise, train cannot communicate with the two different kinds of systems at the boundary, or those kind of, maybe knowing this example of London trains was four onboard units because there are four kind of systems and for every system you have to have a different onboard units.

That is not, which I wanted for my system. So we went for an ETCS 2 from the day one. Normally in Europe you’ll not find many examples where people have gone for this system for a urban transport project.

Jaspal Singh ([00:01:37]):

Welcome to the Mobility Innovators Podcast.

Jaspal Singh ([00:01:43]):

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Mobility Innovator Podcast. I’m your host, Jaspal Singh. Mobility Innovator Podcasts Invite key innovators in the transportation and logistics sector to share their experience and future forecasts. In this episode, we’ll be discussing the mega infrastructure project in India Rapid Rail Network.

Today’s guest is the managing director of NCRTC, which is the National Capital Region Transfer Corporation. He’s presently leading transformation in regional mobility by implementing the regional Rapid Transit system project in the National Capital three Zero of India. NCRTC is mandated for designing, developing, implementing, financing, operating and maintaining the RRTS project.

He has built NCRTC from scratch and is now spearheading the development of the idea into a reality through this $15 billion project. Before joining NCRTC, he was the Chief Executive Officer of the High-Speed Rail Corporation, where he played a key role in developing the Mumbai Ahmedabad High Speed Rail project. Having served as executive Director in the Ministry of Railway, he has experience of working on board of many joint venture companies and has acquired a profound policy perspective. He has been officer in charge of the execution team of the first section of Delhi Metro Rail Project in the field.

I’m so happy to welcome Mr. Vinay Kumar Singh, Managing Director of National Capital Region Transport Corporation. It’s now time to listen and learn.

Jaspal Singh ([00:03:09]):

Hello Vinay Sir. It’s great pleasure to have you on the show, and I’m really looking forward to learn from your experience.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:03:16]):

Thank you, Jaspal, for giving me this opportunity to talk to you and through you to some listeners.

 

Jaspal Singh ([00:03:23]):

Great, sir. And I just want to share before starting our discussion that I used to work with DIMTS in 2010, and at that time, DIMTS was responsible for conducting the feasibility study of this Rapid Rail Transit project. So, personally, somewhere I’m attached with this project and I keep following what NCRTC is doing and how you’re leading the organization. And I would say that I’m a big fan of your work how the organization is shaping up and building the first rapid rail transit project in India.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:03:53]):

Thank you for your kind words. So we are working on this massive project, and very complex because it’s happening in the national capital and around the national capital.

Jaspal Singh ([00:04:05]):

Yeah, it’s one of the biggest projects I would say in India.

So let’s discuss what NCRTC is all about because this is a global podcast. So I want to start telling our listener what is this project all about? Because India has already built a 859 kilometer of metro system, which is fourth largest in operation. So why this rapid rail project is different from the metro project, which is happening in India and how it’ll reshape the whole system.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:04:36]):

So RRTS is a new kind of system, a rail-based system, which is different from metros, and it is different from Indian individuals also because Indian provides services throughout the country and general long distance trains out there. Yeah. And that has freight as well as passenger traffic here. Primarily, this system is being built for commuters for intercity travel, say of a boat, anything from 50 to 150 kilometers.

Jaspal Singh ([00:05:14]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:05:15]):

So and the stations are also spaced at a much longer distance. Anything from 5 to 10 kilometers on first of its kind, which we are just constructing, the stations are as close as 3.5 kilometers, two as distant as 7 to 8 kilometers. So this is much more than, not only the distances, which are anything from 0.8 kilometers to 1.2 kilometers. What happens if you are in station distances are a little more, as in our case, you can have trains running at much higher speed. So because you get time to accelerate and plus the average speed of train changes, even for the same train, if the intersection distance is more, the average speed will become higher.

Now, using this principle, we choosing a design speed of 180 kilometers per hour on RRTS system. The operational speed of 160 kilometers per hour. Now, what happens when a train runs between a station having average of five to seven kilometers, the average to a kilometer, the speed which is available commercial speed, which is available is in the range of 100-200 kilometers with a train is stopping at each and every station.

Jaspal Singh ([00:06:42]):

Hmm.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:06:43]):

But if you increase the station distance by having hopping train. A train is missing some of the station, which can be planned depending upon the need and requirement of the people, then every speed can go much higher. Also, it can touch 150-180 kms per hour, which is quite significantly different than metro, which is about 30- 32 kilometers per hour anywhere across the world. If you see all metro system will give that kind of speed. Yeah. And National Railway Indian, which has the maximum running speed in the range of 80-100 kilometers on the average speed, comes to around 75 kilometers in that range. But those are, again, I’m talking of those trains, which are running for 40-50 kilometers at a stretch, not stopping up to more than 50 kilometers or maybe more than 100 kilometers in stretch distances. So this is quite a different kind of pro transport product, which is being now introduced in India. And technologically very advanced in terms of comfort. It is very advanced. This is much more comfortable. So very safe because the technology is being used are entirely state of the art.

Jaspal Singh ([00:08:12]):

Amazing. I feel like what you mentioned is it’ll be the fastest trained network in the country. I think under the high speed.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:08:21]):

Till Mumbai and the high-speed line is commissioned this system, RRTS, will remain the fastest system in India.

Jaspal Singh ([00:08:33]):

Oh, that’s great, sir. So now I want to just switch to your personal journey because that’s very important to you. You were involved in the high-speed rail project as well. So I was telling somebody that Mr. E Sreedharan is remembered as a metro man of India, and I think you will be called as a rapid rail man of India because you were officer in charge of execution of first section of Delhi Metro, but also you were the first Chief Executive Officer of High-Speed Rail Corporation, and now you are the number one employee at NCRTC when you started this whole organization.

So we’d love to know your personal journey in this whole rail system or rail network in India and can you share some interesting fact about your career, which can be, you know, good learning for the young people who are looking to start their career?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:09:21]):

Thank you for that. I’ll say it is the grace of God that I got opportunities to work in very challenging and project, and means I was now I’ve left the Indian Midwest, but I was member of Indian Service of Engineers Railways service, as you mentioned, Mr. Sreedharan also from the same service. And so what happened now in the last about 30 years of my association with Indian, where have I worked? Two-third of my career, I worked with bosses who are not from my own service, which is quite unusual.

Normally in Indian railway, people work under the bosses who are from the same lineage, same department. So, but this was something very different than what does. The second thing, which I will share with you is that I got an opportunity to work on assignments, which were entirely different from each other every time I got transferred or posted.

 

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:10:41]):

So in about six various kinds of assignments, I have done. I started with the normal train track maintenance, building maintenance kind of work, which is engineer does in the Indian Railways and bridge maintenance. And from there, suddenly I came to Delhi Metro, which was purely a construction project in the national capital, quite complex. And because I was looking after the first section, the challenges were much more every time whoever starts a new project that the challenges will be much more. And the experiment was done in my jurisdiction. From there, I came to a position where I was supporting top manager of Northern Railways, so I could see the how management of the full journal of Northern Railways is done. From that position, I could see, because I was working in that office.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:11:48]):

From there, I came to ministry where I worked for almost similar 5 to 10 years, where I was in charge for all the public sector undertaking of any business ministry of railways, rather, I should say. So about 12 or 15 PSU I was coordinating. So I saw the working of those boards, dynamics of such companies at the highest level, how these companies are managed. So I got a portion to see maintenance, I could see the construction, the best construction project of the country at that time. Then I saw the biggest journal from the top, from CS portion. I could see that the ministry was the board of directors of those 15 PSUs. And I was interacting with them all the board members directly and minister’s office. From there, I came to this project where I was coordinating the Mumbai and high project, and I was in the same position. I was looking after the last mile connectivity of railway system to the port.

Jaspal Singh ([00:13:01]):

Oh, great.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:13:03]):

Which was, again, a logistic project, but more than that, an issue, how to handle the revenue, how to distribute revenue between private operators and those kinds of policy issues, very complex issues, which were not sorted out by that time. I worked on those issues. So, I worked on the board of those PPP company people become network board company. So all this gave me a very good idea of various kinds of assignments, each entirely different from the others. So every time I got a new posting, I had to start from zero. But by the time I left, I learned everything about that assignment. And then I got the opportunity to work as Managing Director of NCRTC. Now, everything, what I learned in those 28-30 years and of various kinds of exposure that helped me here. So started this organization from zero, as you rightly pointed out, the first person in the organization. And coming to this stage where we are now, commissioning the first portion of project in very short time means that I never felt that there’s a big challenge because I knew many of which I faced. I knew how to deal with them. So this is something I thought I’ll share with you today.

Jaspal Singh ([00:14:41]):

Well, that sounds really amazing, sir, because the way you mentioned that you work in construction, you work in maintenance, you work in managing the members and revenue department and last-mile connectivity. And you rightly pointed out, like bringing all that experience at NCRTC. It’s a big achievement and also, I must say, your journey must have been very interesting because like you mentioned, every time you were starting from zero, you build it up and then you leave that legacy to somebody else and then move forward and create another new department or organization or division. So that, that sounds very interesting. And I feel a true leader emerge when you put more challenge, not by giving simple tasks. So the true leader is when you get more and more challenge.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:15:27]):

Only thing I feel not is high time, then I should not take up such challenges. There is sometimes you enjoy or to consolidate your gain process.

Jaspal Singh ([00:15:38]):

That’s true. I mean, there should be a time to do that. But I think what you are doing with NCRTC and the whole rapid rail system, like it will be a big change in the country. And in fact, you know, recently India became now the second largest rural network countries with the national highway of 140,000 kilometer. But I feel India need to progress more into the rail segment. And what you mentioned that Rapid Rail is trying to connect different city intercity and bringing rail to the doorstep of people. And I think why it is important, because there are a lot of people who cannot work and live in the city.

So the rail can provide a good medium for them to travel around. Like, if I can travel from Delhi to Jaipur in one hour or one and a half hour, the whole economy will shift. So, I just want to understand more from you is like how this RapidX, now that’s a brand name you’re using for NCRTC, Rapid Rail Project. RapidX, how you feel the RapidX system will change the whole economy of NCR region and what are the current corridor which you are building and what’s our future plans. So can you share a little more about the construction, which is going on right now at RapidX? And what are the future corridor plan for the RapidX?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:16:57]):

See, this project is started from a survey which was done by Indian I think if I’m not wrong, in 1997 – 1998 that kind of, and based upon those studies this got incorporated in this NPR Regional Plan and the transport plan horizon year, 2030-2032. Now from there this discussion has started and people understood the importance of this kind of committer system, especially in Delhi, because you see, if you don’t provide good transport and high speed, good quality transport from metropolitan to outside and if you’re not able to serve the people 50 kilometers, then people are forced because they don’t have a good transport system, they are forced to come and leave the metro.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:18:07]):

Now, this creates different kinds of problems. The city starts increasing in diameter origin, and any city which is expending horizonal, it’ll require much more expenditure per capita or in transport and infrastructure, in providing health facilities, anything which government has to provide as a part of the social welfare, the cost per capita give barrier. So we has come to a stage where not only that it’s the most populated city of world after Tokyo. But it has increased in size, which is unmanageable practically. And in next 10 years, it’ll be completely unmanageable. So understanding this importance of a system which can keep the city contained in a smaller diameters, and people can live literally away from the where only thing is that the system provides good access to various ties in the metropolitan. Most of the cities, as you know, whether it’s Madrid, it’s Paris or it’s Seoul, South Korea, or it’s Tokyo in Japan, if people come in the morning, they do their job, their economic as they go back.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:19:44]):

And what happens in the process, because many people are staying a little away from the city center. A lot of economic activity takes place there in many of the cities, whether it’s Paris or as I mentioned, the most partial areas, the most high-end area is other from the city. It’s not in the center. And those are connected by whether it is rail or any kind of transport mode based. So people stay away, better life style, and there is economic activity to support, and there is stay there and there is different kind of economic activity in the city for which we’ll come and go back. Now this is something which is sustainable. What is happening in Delhi is not sustainable. We all know now, with this background and to decentralize economic activity from Delhi, this project was, and later on in 2006, a committee was made which was chaired by Secretary MoHUA. That time it was called MoUD and there were people from all the neighbouring states, and they started working the this was the Planning Commission made committee.

Jaspal Singh ([00:21:10]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:21:10]):

They suggested three corridors, which now we are working on right now. The first corridor we are constructing, the other two are in the process of planning. So a lot of work has been done also, but not pending in terms of construction. A lot of preparatory work has been done on the other two corridors also, which we are going to take up very soon. But we started four years back. Now we are going to commission a part of it, and the balance will also be commissioned in next two years. And we are trying to expedite that also.

Jaspal Singh ([00:21:50]):

That’s amazing because the first corridor, I think it’s an 82 kilometer. It’s a small corridor. So, you will be delivered the full project in two years. I mean, the whole construction and everything will start. So that’s amazing.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:22:11]):

So construction is already civil construction going on in the balance portion also. And now we have to just complete the system part of that and commission the whole thing,

Jaspal Singh ([00:22:24]):

Commission the whole thing. Now, that’s amazing. I think the whole, I think this is one of the fastest infrastructure projects completed in India, such a mega project, because I think the overall cost of this project is around $5 billion. And, I would say that you completed, like doing the work in one of the toughest times of our entire human history is this, during this Covid period, because the whole construction was stopped. Everything was stopped during that period. But still, you managed to bring it back to life, and do it. So just want to understand how, what kind of challenges you faced during this construction period in last five-six years, and especially during Covid-19 and how NCRTC is using technology to manage these challenges.

Because I’m pretty sure you must be using some different tools, different technologies, which is helping to expedite the whole construction period as well as make it a little different. So I would love to know a little more because in some of the other publications you mentioned about that NCRTC is using BIM and digital twins. So it’ll be great to learn how this project is very different from whatever has done been India so far.

 

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:23:37]):

I agree with you, the, the construction during last four years especially means on one side we are working in the national capital, which is already dense urban area, politically very sensitive. Yeah. You can imagine that doing such kind of huge infrastructure work in national capital brings in its own challenges other than challenges in terms of election of technology, because this is a new kind of project. Any kind of system we are doing in the country, high speed brings in issues of safety, issues of technology and land aggregation, those kind of standards, complexities we face in any project. But that gets multiplied 10 times if you are working in Delhi and then adoption of technology by the industry, because many of these technologies have never been used in the India and outside. We have this challenge of making India because the whole nation said that whatever we do, preferably it should be done within the country and bringing in new technology, which is not applicable in the country.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:25:00]):

And that to within the guidelines of making. So there was huge challenges, but see from the day one, we had this strategy of risk identification and this mitigation. So we managed this, well, I can say that because that is why we could complete it much before the expected timelines, because we had committed to government and share that despite of this factor of Covid-19. During Covid-19, availability of technicians, laborers, engineers, everything was challenging. People were not available and on the other side, material was also not rule because it’s not only that within India, outside India, also our supply line got choked completely for two years. Almost many things where we had to depend outside support, even the movement of material especially the high technology components which are coming from outside, something which used to take 15 days, it started taking three months. So, as I told you that we resorted to where it thought out a strategy where we identified that this plan, we planned accordingly. We planned each and every activity. The interfaces, especially urban transport, project rail projects, are very complex because these have huge interfaces. The constructing a you mentioned about highway. So constructing highway and constructing a railway is entirely different ball.

Jaspal Singh ([00:26:57]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:26:58]):

And we were doing something where we wanted to introduce the best of the technologies, the most suitable technologies for this kind of system at optimum cost within the framework of public procurement within the framework of making India. So, the team worked well the team which I had selected, which I had appointed at various positions within the organization, and they performed this at their peak for consistent use for last four years. And that is why today we are in a very comfortable position as far as project implementation, etc. We use large number of technological tools. Means on one side we set up the art technology for the system. On the other side, technological technology tools for construction monitoring, for project implementation, and then many other techniques like precasting and those kind of things to expedite with whatever we could do, we did.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:28:14]):

And we just took up some other challenges like BIM. So it was a huge challenge to implement BIM in India at that time because very few people knew about it. And implementing on a project of this size was quite challenging. But later on, people understood, later on the team understood that it was big and common data environment, which actually had us in collaboration during Covid time, because designer consultants, they could work from wherever they were, whether it’s country or outside country sitting in Europe or America or in India or Bangalore, Delhi, or within Delhi, because people are not supposed to go anywhere.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:29:00]):

The confines of their houses. Designers worked day and night, and we could do many things. Otherwise, we could have not been done due to covid and due to a strong very tight control on the movement of people. But that kind of collaboration we could do due to Technology and which help in expediting the project.

Jaspal Singh ([00:29:28]):

I fully agree with you. I think it’s like you are foresighted this to implement this technology because without having BIM model or this having very difficult to work during the covid period when nobody was traveling. So it’s a for certainness, and I think technology can help to make collaboration much easier and let people work in real-time rather than waiting them to physically travel and go around. You briefly mentioned that NCRTC used a lot of other technology for construction. And, I would say I was going through some of the research, and very interesting to find that NCRTC is the first system in India, which is using this rigid catenary system for high-speed rail. And also your rolling stock is very unique, and your precast track, which you mentioned would be interested to know more, like why you selected those technologies, and how they are innovative, why it’s more challenging for you to bring those technology in India.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:30:28]):

So, we work only with one single objective that whatever we are doing, we are doing by spending public money.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:30:40]):

And whatever we are going to create should be the most optimum solution in terms of meeting the objectives for which this system is being created. So we choose the technologies which are best suited. So I’m not seeing the best in the world or those kind of these, I’m very particular about that. So this was primarily to optimize the whole system. So there should not be any, no particular subsystem should become a constraint tomorrow. So on one side, on one subsystem, you are using a technology which has huge potential on the other side, one subsystem, which can create constraint for the whole of the system. Those things were taken care of and we went for the category, which is a huge challenge because for higher risk, we know in some of the metro you may be knowing that people use third rate, which is a rigid kind of arrangement. And there are not many examples where a rigid catenary arrangement has been used for peaks beyond 100 kms per hour. Here our requirement was 180. Yeah. So there one of two examples only across the world where people have used rigid catenary, but it took up this challenge because we knew that we have to not only optimize the technologies, but we have to optimize the cost also. And if we don’t go for then the tunnel diameter will become very large.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:32:38]):

This being a system being constructed in Delhi, not only this corridor, but future corridors will also have a lot of underground alignment administration. So we have to choose the technology, which should reduce the engineering cost. This was one. The second was the signaling and telecommunication signaling. Telecommunication is again the CBTC system, which is being used by macro organization in the country. They are not proven for piece beyond hundred-kilometer power. Now, here again, we had this challenge of choosing a technology. It should not only be the cost optimized, but it should be in future also, when we go for the other corridors, then we should not be in a position where we have to cover up more money than what is the right amount for that kind of infrastructure development. So we went for a technology called ETCS 2, the European Train Control System, which is a interoperable system, which has open source.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:33:55]):

So that gives a lot of flexibility. It’s vendor agnostic. So I can go for an onboard system by one vendor and the OnTrack system by some other vendor. So not only this means when we go for the second and third quarter in future, so interoperability among corridors can be a certain, because it’s agnostic. Whereas today in many systems, if you to go for any extension of a line, a small extension, you have to go back to the same vendor for signaling otherwise train cannot communicate with two different kind of systems at the boundary or those kind of maybe knowing this example of London, many trains use four onboard units because there four kind of systems. And for every system you have to have a different onboard unit. Now that is not, which I wanted for my system.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:35:00]):

So we went for a ETCS 2 from day one. Normally in Europe you’ll not find many examples where people have gone for this system for a urban transport project. Normally this is a mainline solution. But we went for it. The second challenge came because the communication backbone we present communication system is getting obsolete. So there a requirement that we go for a new kind of technology which can remain sustainable or which doesn’t become obsolete in next, at least one or two decades. So we are the other system today has become the first ETCS level 2 system on it, so European system, but being commissioned for the first time outside Europe.

Jaspal Singh ([00:36:08]):

Hmm.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:36:09]):

That’s, and there again, there again we have done many other, we have taken many other courageous citizens, like we are integrating it with the platform doors.

Jaspal Singh ([00:36:20]):

Mm-Hmm.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:36:21]):

We are going to have an interoperable ATC system sitting over our signaling system for train operation. So many things which make it’s very unique. It’s never been tried track site. You mentioned the track here also for lower speed up to 90 kms per hour challenge was how to go for a track which is paid for higher speed of 180 kms per hour.

Jaspal Singh ([00:36:57]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:36:58]):

And we worked on various solutions sub here again, I was very clear that I’m not going to take a vendor specific solution. So whatever will do, will take the technology, we’ll use it by Indian contractors, so construction to be done by the Indian contractors. The technology we may take, because technology is not good with the country, we have to take it from outside. We selected this form precast track technology, which is also called Austrian train technology.

Jaspal Singh ([00:37:38]):

Okay. And so

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:37:40]):

This technology has been used in last 30-40 years across the world in high-speed projects, up to a speed of 120-140 kms, those kind of, I’m sorry, 320-340 kilometers per hour. We have customized the design for our requirement, as I was telling you, customized and for our requirement. And today I’m happy that we are running trains at 180 kms per hour and touch with track is behaving very well. So now I can say that we have mastered this technology in last two years. We are happy now even the IP rights of the technology we have purchased so other corridors, so we can do without going back to the vendor.

Jaspal Singh ([00:38:32]):

That’s superb. Like I love your point about, because not many people think about. One is how to cost optimize because they say, I want to buy the best of the world. But sometime the best of the world is not the best functional in certain environment, and especially like Delhi, or a country like India, where you need the take really robust system to perform on the field. So you make sure that it’s best of the world, but also meeting the local requirement and also the foresighted ness of having scale up in future. Because sometime you have good system, but then you cannot scale it up later on and have this vendor lockup. And the challenge of interoperability. So you are already thinking about those things, not only for corridor one, but corridor 2, 3, 4 or 5, whatever. It will come and you want to make sure that it’s interoperable. So that, I would say these are very foresighted things like not many leaders sometime think and they just think on. This is the task; I just finished it. But you are not completing the current task, but you’re already thinking about, okay, what’s the future look like?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:39:36]):

And two other things, because you mentioned inability, I must tell you that even during these three corridors when I took over as managing the drop, I found that these three corridors were terminating at different places.

Jaspal Singh ([00:39:52]):

Hmm.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:39:53]):

And I found that this again is not an optimal solution, plus not in favor of the commuters we’ll be using. Nor it is in favor of the automation because you have to have inventories for each of the carbon because they’re separated by geographical distances of two kilometers. So, but then I changed the whole scheme. We integrated the three corridors you were in, you may remember this, that earlier there was three corridors. One was two meeting near your office.

Jaspal Singh ([00:40:29]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:40:32]):

And one was it. But later on I changed this team and I made those terminals rather I eliminated those terminals and made Kashmere Gate one pass station and normal simple, a small restriction. Same thing we did at Sarai Kale Khan. Three quarters are meeting the trains can move from one corridor to another corridor without passengers have to change the train so they can go from one corridor to like, somebody traveling from merit side can directly go to the airport, which is on the other horizon. Now you imagine the ease of travel for passengers, somebody going from Meerut to Gurugram, ease of travel, no change involved. Earlier. It was not possible the kind of planning we were doing. So this optimization and this integration and this interoperability of trains and the corridors, this has not only helped the commuters, but it’ll help the organization because the number of trains, which should be the number of deep rolling stocks you need, number of machinery, which you need, will significantly reduce plus lot of operational flexibility. People can move from machinery, can move from one corridor to another. A stock can move from one corridor wherever the need to push more because everything is interconnect.

Jaspal Singh ([00:42:11]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:42:12]):

And how much we reduced $1.5 billion just by this simple idea in terms of capital investment. I’m not talking of operational maintenance reduction, which will happen in next 50 years. Even at capital stage, if I’m not wrong, around INR 11,000 crores. So almost like $1.5 billion.

Jaspal Singh ([00:42:40]):

That’s a huge

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:42:42]):

You could introduce. Yeah,

Jaspal Singh ([00:42:44]):

I think what you mentioned, because I know a couple of system around the globe where they have this challenge of interoperability and it’s not only costly, but also very inefficient because something you need to, across the corridor, if you want to use the resources and you can’t do, so what you’re doing is, it’s really remarkable. And0 I agree with you. When I was in DIMTS, that was the plan like once will end up the Sarai Kale Khan Station and two will be at the Kashmere Gate. It’s so great to know.

Now, in fact, you, that’s another thing which RapidX is doing very good is building this integration with other mode of transit. You want to make sure that all the NCRTC station should emerge as a mobility hub, not just as a station. So they should be kind of a mobility hub. So would love to know your vision for RapidX to build this multi-model hub in the city. And also if you can share a little more about anything you’re doing with the ToD, because I saw recently you had a big workshop on ToD and you brought experts from around the world. So what’s your vision on creating this multimodal hub and ToD side?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:43:55]):

Yes. multimodal integration with other modes of public transport is core strategy of NCRTC. We work very diligently on ensuring that each and every station, wherever we are constructing, should be able to serve at least two or three different modes of transport. So we work with the other authorities in India, you know that it is quite fragmented, the control governance of these organizations is quite fragmented. And in Italy, this is much more difficult than any other state due to the governance complexity. But we could make a very good start in this. We work with cities, we work with India authorities, we work with state transport cooperation, almost each and every station of NCRTC. We have very good multimodal integration and in each and every station we are providing parking facilities.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:45:11]):

We provide a facility for integration with the last mile connectivity provider. And we are taking the main station a little away from the highway. We are along the highway or at the middle of the highway to ensure that later on tomorrow, there’s no congestion on highway due to our presence. We are very much conscious about this, and two things I would like to mention. Other than many, you may aware that what we are doing at Gurgaon, what I, we are doing not only that, Metro trains, the Indian railway, and then airport, we are connecting, but two were specific cases, I tell you to what extent we have bought. So these, both these examples are from merit. In one case, what we did will subdue the metro car door in RRTS corridor.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:46:10]):

So in about 21 kilometers of length in the City of Merit, we have not only four RRTS station where RRT station will be stopping, but on the same line, on the same infrastructure, we will have additional nine metro stations. So a total of 13 stations on which the metro, which will also be applying on the same line, will stop. And RRTS high speed trains will stop only at four. So on the same platform, you can get other train or a metro train. So both the systems subsumed, we saved $1 billion, and we could provide them services, both kind of services. And you imagine the ease of traveling on by metro. You came on the platform and then you took an RRTS on the same platform, same card, same ticket, and you come to Delhi or to airport or anything. Now, so this is something radically different than what normally is happening. Second thing, what we are doing, very interesting, there is a bus stand at the center of the city. A big city matters.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:47:30]):

And old buses station. The both the roads, the road network is congested because it’s an old city. Even we had to go underground in a small city like merit. But now what we are doing, we are shifting this bus strand from the center of the city to periphery of the city to terminal bus strand to directional, not terminal directional buses. The one in the north of the other one is south. Both buses, strands being served by metro. So if somebody is coming from, let I say from Delhi, he can get down at South and catch a metro, which is very well integrated metro station and RRTS, we are constructing it. We are doing it for the city. And same on the other side.

Jaspal Singh ([00:48:25]):

Yeah.

 

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:48:27]):

Now, 1,200 buses, which are entering the city, will not enter, thereby reducing the congestion significantly, plus the people who are moving by other motor transport on the same access, which is the busiest access, which carries the about 70% the traffic otherwise of the city. Now metro is there, because now buses will not enter, the people can move on the metro significantly reducing the condition. So real integration, multimodal integration, as you pointed out, we could actually, I’m just giving you two major examples. Other things like other cities we are doing at so many other places.

Jaspal Singh ([00:49:11]):

This is so impressive. This is so impressive, and I think that’s that should be the mission of any new project is not only just build, but also retransform the whole city infrastructure. What you’re doing with Meerut building this north-south bus station is actually, will change the whole outlook for the city because now the traffic will be less in the city. The buses can stop and the people will also start using metro. So in a way, you’re encouraging people to use more multi-modal transit rather than using their cars. So it’s seamless service. They can go from Point A to Point B without using their own personal car. And, you did that workshop on ToD. What’s your plan for the ToD? That sounds very interesting because it’s again, very futuristic step done by NCRTC. Nobody in India was talking ToD in that way. So how you’re looking to implement ToD along the NCRTC corridor.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:50:09]):

The concept of ToD is still not very much developed in India. In some states, some work has been done, but states like Delhi where we are working or in eventually,

Jaspal Singh ([00:50:25]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:50:25]):

So things are happening now. We thought that this is the right time when such a huge system is being constructed. This is right time when we should introduce the principles of transit oriented development. Let the other challenge is the developmental authorities, the authorities which are supposed to do this transit, because our role as transit authority is limited. So the whole thing is to be done by the city planners or the developmental authorities, which are, but we are supporting them. And first we are trying to make them understand what is ToD and why it is essentially required when such a big system, a transit system is being introduced in their area. And I’m happy that, that our push and support to these organizations is making them think differently and let, making them understand the importance and the importance of timing, why it should be done now, how it can help doing it now, rather than doing it 10 years after when the areas around station will get congested due to a boom in the property in nearby area.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:51:55]):

So if we start regulating construction around the station from this moment itself, then city will have a much better environment to our spaces to live rather than a congested station, which you see in many near many of our railway stations. Because when the railways came, the city got constructed or developed around those station. Most of our cities have registration at the center of the city because historically the city got developed around them, around those same thing will happen here. Also, the development will take place around the registration and if we don’t regulate it from the data, so transit oriented development is going to regulate the development around station. And in the process, in the process we’ll do land value capture. So we are working with the government, the state governments, because the revenue goes to them. We are working with them to introduce some instruments where some additional tax on profit, which a private property owner is getting due to the introduction of the system. That tax profit, a share of that is taken by state. And part of that is shared with. So those instruments now we have putting in place so that the money which gets generated through these instruments 50% of that is used by the city authorities in developing the infrastructure due to the vertical development in those areas to strengthen the infrastructure there. And 50% comes backwards for financing. These kind of, for those, the present one or the future one that is broadly this scheme

Jaspal Singh ([00:53:57]):

Amazing. I mean, I would again say it’s like a foresighted next year already seeing that this going to happen in 10-15 years, why not try to develop it at a proper way so that people will be happy who living around the station and the whole economy will come up around these station people can move around. The commercial center can build up, the office space can come up. Now, I think this project, like you’re doing so many futuristic thing and you mentioned briefly about the ticketing system also, which you’re implementing at RRTS. And it’ll be integrating with Metro. But also, I read recently that people can use UPI to buy a ticket. And UPI is one of the biggest innovations. I mean, in western world also, we kind of, and see like how India has built this mobile payment system and whole economy has turned into a distal payment economy. It’s a very innovative approach. So can you share a little more about why you’re implementing UPI for buy ticket and how it’ll be useful for NCRTC as well as for the commuters?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:54:59]):

So RRTS or RapidX being a mass transit system, we are going for automatic care collection system and where people will pay through their card. We are introducing NCMC from day one, which is the national common Mobility card. Same card can be used by any other transit. So people using cards with us and use same card will be used in tele metro or maybe buses, which will be our feeder or the train systems or any other transit system across the country. So NCMC makes it very easy for AFCS to purchase tickets or to travel. In addition to that, what we are doing is we we’re introducing our own app. So this app, which is called Rapid Act Connect, the app.

Jaspal Singh ([00:55:56]):

Okay.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:55:57]):

This app has the facility to book tickets. It has many features, which makes Journey much simpler much easier. And third, as you I mentioned, we are introducing UPI payment on this. So not only that you can pay through your card credit or cash payment. You can pay through u p I also now in India, large number of people use this facility and it makes their lives much easier. And it makes our life also much easier because not much cash handy. At our registration. So it is, this is going to help the commuter as well. And we with the first system across the system, which is going to introduce UPI payment at all of our AFC ticketing machines on from the day one.

Jaspal Singh ([00:56:58]):

I agree with you, it’s a first system which you’re using, but I think you will kind of open up platform for others. So other agencies and other transit network will start using it. And, in future, probably RapidX app can be used across any other metro system in the, in the country. So it’ll be interesting to see. Now I want to discuss a little more about the operation side of RapidX. And I would say again, that’s one of the first for India, like that RapidX has adopted this outsourcing model approach and appoint in DB for operation and maintainers. I would say it’s the first public sector rail project on PPP. And it’s very interesting. So can you share more about why did you decide to take that part, why you want to go for outsourcing model and what kind of lesson you learned in that process? Because it’s the first outsourcing model for such a big infrastructure project. So what were some of the key lessons you learned in that process and how will you measure the performance of this outsourcing model? So what are the critical KPIs you will follow to make sure that the project is delivering results?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:58:09]):

Okay. So this was also something we took upon ourselves that we go for this private sector operator. This is government of India policy since many years. But no other company, no other corporation thought about it to do it in such a comprehensive way as we did. We decided from the day one that we are willing to have private sector maintenance and operation. We have now two contracts. One is with the Rolling Stop OEM.

Jaspal Singh ([00:58:50]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:58:51]):

So Rolling stocks, OEM will maintain the train in the constructed by and NCRTC. They’re trained their people, they’ll maintain for 15 years. And these are comprehensive. This is a comprehensive contract. So even if a component doesn’t work, they to replace it. So we have taken advantage of lifecycle costs

Jaspal Singh ([00:59:16]):

Amazing

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:59:18]):

For 15 years. Number two is Operation Matters contract. The scope includes the maintenance of all system, which is basically track traction signaling, telecommunication.

Jaspal Singh ([00:59:35]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([00:59:37]):

PST, which is power supply and operation of the train, not only train the operation of control room. It’s all kind of facilities. All fixed infrastructure maintenance remains with OEMs. This again, a 12 years contract, which we can extend their provisions in the contract, which can be extended on mutual understanding. These two, what now we have to manage is these two contracts and interface between these two contractors. Something new, which is happening.

Jaspal Singh ([01:00:20]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:00:22]):

Radically different from how this used to be seen. Now the first challenge new in this kind of arrangement, because these are comprehensive contract, rolling stock is okay because it was manufactured by them. They’ll maintain, there’s no interface. The project has been constructed by us. The whole infrastructure has been constructed by us, and now we are handing it to work to DB for maintenance. And there again, it’s a comprehensive contract. That means anything going wrong, DB has to put their money. Now at this stage itself, the work which we have done, the project which we have executed, now they say automatically there’s one more party, which is looking at it, that the construction execution of work has been done as per the international norms only then they’ve able to run it.

Jaspal Singh ([01:01:21]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:01:23]):

So you imagine a situation where a team which has constructed is operating, and if anything goes wrong, also it can be covered in our system. It cannot run. Now there an operator who will say that you first correct it.

Jaspal Singh ([01:01:41]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:01:44]):

So it makes our life difficult, but it makes quality of effect of very,

Jaspal Singh ([01:01:54]):

I agree with now,

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:02:02]):

But if we do it successfully for 10 or 15 years, which is still be a challenge because happening for the first-time long-term contract and a publicly procured contract this kind of contract is quite rigid. Hmm. We have thought a lot about what kind of KPIs, everything dotted down in contract, but everything cannot be identified in contract. All of us, you know, so it’ll have its own challenges during the operation, but that is why we are here. We’ll ensure that whatever is written is good enough to operate this contract and its completion.

Jaspal Singh ([01:02:52]):

Yeah. I love your point. I mean because this is such a huge project and such a long tenure, you cannot be rigid. So the partnership approach and thinking from that angle, I think it’ll be more important for the success of this project. But I’m pretty confident because like you mentioned, the lot of work you have done to thought about it and you put those KPIs, and at the same time you are thinking how to make it a success because you’re not, because a lot of these PPP project fail because the agencies are rigid. They’re not understanding the ground reality. But here you are making sure everything put in place, and if it’ll be successful, I think then like, it’ll be easier for NCRTC to expand quickly other corridor and focus on building and constructing new corridor rather than just operating one.

Jaspal Singh ([01:03:40]):

That’s a great thing. Now, one of the key challenges for regional rail system is to ensure the full utilization of the set in non-peak hours. And we can, and again, NCRTC is doing some interesting work there that you want to mix up passenger and goods, which is again, very unique. Not many systems have able to do or thought about it, but it can bring more sustainability, more revenue generation opportunity for the agencies. And also I think goods are equally important to transit. Like there is a lot of travel, or traffic because of the good movement from different city. So very interested to know how Rex has planning to mix both goods and passenger and any plan to reduce 24 hour service in future. Because in that case, then in the night you can use rain to do some other work. But any future plan, you have to introduce 24 hour service.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:04:35]):

See railway system carrying passengers that to at a very high speed is quite expensive. Constructing this kind of system that to in fully developed our Rapid Rail capital’s quite expensive. And commuter systems typically have very sharp peak in the morning and in the evening, in the day or later in the evening, sometimes the, you don’t need those number of streams and the system is being designed for the peak. You have to manage that peak. Lot of unutilized path are available with us, and capital investment has already been made. We thought how to utilize these assets where we have already made a lot of investment. And then we thought that thousands of trucks enter into Delhi every day in the night and day, carrying essential, carrying various kinds of parcels, boots. And if we can help the city by running some trains exclusively for freight or maybe partially for parcels in trains, I don’t know, it’s still, we are working on it, but we wanted to use the path available on the system. The staff is deployed. Energy is there, system is there.

Jaspal Singh ([01:06:16]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:06:17]):

Cannot use it and optimize as I keep on saying how to optimize

Jaspal Singh ([01:06:23]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:06:26]):

The system which is designed for the peak capacity. So then we started working on it and we found two studies. One was done by Asian Development Bank, the other one is being done by the World Bank. For us, they clearly show that there’s a good potential, so we are keen to work on them. The planning is, the strategy is to move these trains from one depot report to another, not handling things at station. The station are designed for passenger movement.

Jaspal Singh ([01:07:07]):

Yeah.

 

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:07:09]):

And these, yeah, the standards of finishes and all kind of support arrangement, their registration fit for passengers. If we start handling goods at station, then probably it’ll decorate all those kinds of things. So we’ll be running with train, special train, which will procure separately and we’ll run these trains with the hoods, which are essentially required by the citizens of Delhi.

Jaspal Singh ([01:07:43]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:07:44]):

That we can reduce the large number of trucks coming to. So congestion, reducing congestion from the road, reducing pollution solution, and bringing in this kind of electrified trains and safety parcel within Citi. And many things which go outside city also.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:08:03]):

We can carry many things. And once we start doing it, you’ll find that many industries or many smaller kind of businesses will move city rather than within city. So there will be flow, which I believe will get established where the strength we’re bringing from outside to city and from inside the city to outside. And that is what we want to capture. That is part of our mandate that is that we have to reduce congestion, we have to reduce pollution in the city. And I think I strongly rather think that by doing that, we can contribute a lot to both these two pyramids. So once we are our passenger movement, passenger operations in the next two years or so, immediately after that, we’ll start working on this freight movement during off time. So not in the night because night, we need system for maintenance. But in the day itself, as I was telling you, between morning and peak, also, we can run large number of, of freight trains because this system capacity is very high.

Jaspal Singh ([01:09:23]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:09:25]):

The train, the passenger train, you may need every five minutes, 10 minutes, but you can off peak, you may need a train in 10 minutes. You can push two trains between two passenger of trains easily at three minute frequency because system can support that kind of frequency.

Jaspal Singh ([01:09:43]):

Yeah, that’s a good point.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:09:44]):

Design for those kinds of frequencies.

Jaspal Singh ([01:09:48]):

And you’re already thinking about, so you’re designing your system in a way to build those features.

 

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:09:53]):

Now we are making provision all provisions to cater to that already we’re made.

Jaspal Singh ([01:10:00]):

Amazing. So now I would like to ask you sir about the NCRTC Open Innovation policy. So NCRTC published an invitation in May 2022 last year. And I would say one of the interesting proposal I’ve seen where you invited all the mobility player in India and said, why don’t they provide feeder service at RapidX Station? And I think it’s very important because everybody understands that the first and last mile is very important for the success of any system.

And in fact, in Europe, at the rail station, you can avail all kinds of mobility option, which is very important to provide all option from the station. So I would love to know more about NCRTC open innovation policy and how you’re engaging with startup because I think our prime Minister also highlighted many times that the startups are the next engine of growth and it’s very important for agencies to work with startup. So it’ll be very interesting to know how NCRTC using itself as a test bed to pilot new technology with these startup.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:11:00]):

So as I was explaining earlier, also, we are having integration at various levels, starting from interoperability. So all the three corridors of RRTS are interoperable. That means trains can move from one corridor to another seamlessly. But two is multimodal integration where we are having a station almost at every major public transport system wherever we are going, whether it is airport, whether it is national administration or the Delhi Metro’s metro stations or metro stations in Gurugram, or metro stations in Meerut. Now the next level is last-mile connectivity. So one way we are either feed service to other systems or other systems are feeder and dispersal to us. But beyond that, at every station, we will have last-mile connectivity to the passengers who are coming to our system or going to their residences or the place of work.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:12:06]):

So that is the last mile connectivity on which we have we had a lot of discussion in the industry that is also, again, a practice which you follow in whatever area we want to work first. We interact and engage with the industry. So as you rightly pointed out, we had invited the people for this kind of workshop to understand how we can work together. Accordingly, we invited the proposals and further we finalized with two of the operators, and we have provided by the extensive facilities at our entry exit to station. So every entry exit to RRTS, whether it is in Delhi or outside Delhi, any state we are providing parking facilities and locations. We are the last-mile connectivity players can bring in their mode of transport, whether it is a two or a three-wheeler, or a four-wheeler, or a bus pickup drop, or a Ola, Uber pickup and drop.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:13:09]):

So everything is planned at each one of the entry exit off our restoration. So if a station has three entry exit, we have these ties that all the three locations we have acquired land for this, we have ensured that this integration with the last-mile connectivity players is seamless. We have seen that in some of the projects metro projects earlier. People did not provide this kind of ability, and that has left to less patronage. Yeah. We are very clear that we’ll provide this kind of facility to illustration so that commuters patronize our system. If we’ll make it convenient for them, they’ll patronize. Now, coming to your question about the innovation. So we are promoting people who, who are coming with a new idea. Whether it’s last mile connectivity or being in some technology. So the last mile connectivity or multimodal integration is at various levels, you know that.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:14:11]):

This is starting from integration of information, integration of physical integration, which I just explained to you in terms of its spaces in administration. The third level is then integration of maybe your payment mode. We have developed an app through which people can move seamlessly in an integrated way from their house to wherever to their destination, the last destination. And slowly we will integrate mobile payment mode also. We are working on that. So same card or through the same app, people can pay not only for RRTS ticket, but they can pay through third service providers also. So we are working with the new startups to understand how they can contribute, how they can bring the new ideas in, providing a very wholesome kind of public transport as I popularly, I keep saying this network of networks. We’re creating a huge network of networks. So a smaller network near registration, then a bigger network, and then multimodal network integration so that we can link with the all kind of multi public transports. And last one connectivity is the private transport also.

Jaspal Singh ([01:15:35]):

Well, that’s amazing. I love your term network of network because that’s how systems should be to create a small network and connect with other, and your layer of interoperability and then multimodal and feeder. It’s really amazing. Now, I love your point, because a lot of systems fail to emphasize these things, like how to integrate with other mode. So it’s great that you’re doing at the planning level itself, not just once you build a station, it’s very hard to do the integration later on. I think, it’s again, very unique what’s happening in India. So great to see you are leading this kind of a change. The other thing I want to understand from you is now what kind of innovation do you’re doing for your rolling stock? Because I recently read that RapidX will be reserving one coach for woman passenger, which is, again, very unique initiative, but especially for regional transport.

Jaspal Singh ([01:16:25]):

I never heard about this like having a reserve coach for women. So it’s very interesting. And in Europe and in in other country, I’ve seen, like sometime they have a kids coach where they have a play area for kids because the journeys are longer and kids can play. And so what are other interesting initiative you are taking to make the, the model more innovative and also accessible? Because I think that’s also very important for any system to be successful. Our population is aging. There are people like kids and all. So how system should be more accessible for people with special needs?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:16:59]):

All illustrations are universally accessible. That means whether it is. The committee is a kid or an elderly person, or a lady in India, ladies with sari. For them it should be easy to travel through these stations by train. So important things, I just list out for you. Number one, I just told you, that we have universal accessibility. That means lifts, escalator, staircase, everything is available to all platforms, whatever is the height. If the height of the station is more, we have provided more escalators, bigger lifts and then platforms and train floors are almost at the same level with few millimeters of difference. So that it is very easy for a wheelchair to move inside or outside the train. There is a dedicated space for a wheelchair. One step further we have gone is that we can move a patient on a stretcher also.

 

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:18:09]):

So every train, every train has a place where a stretcher can be parked. The train has been designed, the coach has been designed accordingly. And every platform has a lift through which a stretcher can be brought to the train. So it’ll be very seamless beyond this, if you see then not only that we have a coach for women. We have kids resulting each coach for women, for elderly, for kids, for pregnant ladies. So every coach has that facility. And we have a coach, which is result for premium class passengers. So we have taken our mandate very seriously. So it is not that we will be shifting people from two wheeler and three wheeler. We intend to shift people from their private cars to RRTS because this is a long distance, a medium to long distance train where people will move 5,250 kilometers.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:19:17]):

As kilometers means on daily basis. Presently, this kind of commute is being done by cars and until, unless we provide better facilities to them. And you said a few things are aspirations also in India. Still the car is an aspirational thing. People would not like to leave car until they can show to the society that they are still a class different now for them until, unless I provide a facility of premium class, they will not shift. And that is why we have decided that each train, RRTS train will have one premium class. So we have done many things to bring out people from their private places to RRTS again.

Jaspal Singh ([01:20:06]):

I say, many interesting initiatives. I think the premium train for regional will be very first initiative in India. It’s generally people like in metro, we don’t have that kind of a facility. And also the moving patients stretcher availability. I think this is unique. I never heard anybody has done this, but it makes sense if people have a non-life threatening like move from one city to another some injury or some requirements so they can move from one place to another through rail system. So you reduce traffic on the road and push more people to go into the train. Now, again, very unique, very interesting initiative we are taking here. Now, I want to shift gear a bit and would love to know more about your leadership side because leading this project is not easy.

Jaspal Singh ([01:20:55]):

And not only this project, but you have done so many other project in life. So, you must have gained a lot of lessons throughout your professional journey. You build NCRTC from scratch, and I’m pretty sure it might be closer to very to your heart because it’s like your baby, which you have, now becoming like a toddler and will become an adult. So it’ll be great to learn some of leadership lesson from you, how to build an organization from a scratch and bring to that level and execute. And, also not only big build a big organization, but also lead, leave a legacy, you know, because in future also somebody else will lead the organization. So how this person can lead the organization. So what are your lesson that, how somebody can build the organization?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:21:46]):

This is a little difficult because many times I don’t think, but I do as instinct. But you are asking to articulate it. So what comes to mind is everything is chart from a very clear vision. Leader has to have very clear vision, the objective of organization, the objective of project, which this organization will be doing. And accordingly we have to create the organization. In this case, in case of NCRTC, earlier, also in, there were occasions when I created organization. But in this particular case, I tell you I was the first person to join this organization, means there was nobody in the organization when I joined. But I had very clear vision about what we are going to do. Let us say this is a railway system. I decided very early that we will have private operation and maintenance. This was a huge decision because in India till now, there’s no system, no railway system publicly owned, which is being maintained or operated by my private operator. Now until, unless I have this idea in my mind firmly, then I cannot create an organization. Because if you create organization where everything is to be done by that organization or the people hired by that organization, then the structure of the organization will be entirely different.

Jaspal Singh ([01:23:23]):

Yeah, very true.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:23:26]):

So as I said, vision has to be very clear, number one. And number two, you have to align your thought process with the government guidelines. Because it’s a public funded project for public funded company, we have to understand that what is acceptable, what is not acceptable, and to what extent you can take risk in the express of the orientation or interest of the project. So that comes from your background of various experiences you have during your professional career. The other part is personal means what kind of leader you are as you are. So I believe that leaders should be courageous, number one. So clear vision and courage. Courage of taking decisions, courage of doing things which may have been done earlier, may not have been done earlier. But clear vision will give you that strength to take decisions. And the other important aspect is integrity.

Jaspal Singh ([01:24:32]):

Hmm.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:24:35]):

People of high integrity can take very challenging decisions or courageous decisions very easily. So if leader is of high integrity, he can take business very quickly. Only thing is the experience, the competence, the clarity of thought. As I said, these have to be on the background. If these are on the background and you have courage, then it’s easier. And until, unless you have that, you cannot make it customized organization, which I think you can create organizations which are like any other organization, or you can create organization which is unique, which can do things which people have not done. And this is what we did in NCRTC. We are doing things which no organization had courage to do earlier, broadly, I can take. So we can talk on this subject for hours together. But with that limited time you are given, I think this is what I would like to share with you.

Jaspal Singh ([01:25:46]):

No, that’s, these are, I would say I really love your point about having decision making capacity in a leader and courage to take that decision. Because in public sector, that’s a challenge we face most of the organization, even if we have good leader, they don’t have courage to take the season because it’s not easy. Like you mentioned, you have to align the interest of public and the government sector. And it’s not easy. And a lot of leader fail to do that. And I would say that you have actually built NCRTC in a very unique way, because I know a lot of people who are working there. And the talent you have brought in the organization, it’s very unique. You brought people from private sector, you brought people from public sector and tried to make sure that everybody worked together.

 

Jaspal Singh ([01:26:28]):

And that can only happen when, when the leader is very clear to take decision and move forward. And especially during that COVID era, which was very unique, people were stuck. They couldn’t able to move forward. And I have seen many organizations around the world. So whatever I’m telling you, I’m really telling you from my experience that I haven’t seen organization like NCRTC, which is working under government on such mega project and still manage to bring so much talent from private sector, and deliver the project on the ground and bringing the project. So I would say many congratulations to you, and like you said, we can probably have a separate discussion on the leadership lessons from your side. Now I want to discuss about the challenge part in this journey. So I mean, like you mentioned, you were the first employee at NCRTC and then NCRTC now has come a long way, but I’m pretty sure the journey was not easy.

Jaspal Singh ([01:27:24]):

It’s look easy, it was started, you bring people in and you build automation, but it’s not that easy. So would like to ask some of the challenges and situations where you actually required to change the course during this journey. Because it’s not easy. Like in the government sector, you have some plan, but when you go in the field and try to deliver, you feel like, it’s not possible. We have to have Plan B, and move forward quickly, because otherwise you will be stuck. Like you mentioned earlier about the land acquisition, it’s not easy. So if something is not happening, how you change that. So what were your lesson learned from that process? Like whenever you have challenge and you need to change the course, because it’ll be very useful for other system to learn. You cannot deliver big infrastructure project. If you don’t have agility and flexibility at the same time, like what you said, sticking to your vision, if you move away from your vision, the whole system will collapse. So what were your lessons and what were some of the challenges you faced during this journey?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:28:24]):

So in the, actually these two things are in contradictory. You see the having a clear vision and firmly moving on that vision. And again, having the flexibility to change course also. You understand what I’m saying? Contradiction means inherent contradiction. But see, ultimately, as you rightly pointed out, if we have to deliver the project and we have to deliver a project where we don’t compromise with the objectives of that project. So every time I talked to my team, I kept on demanding them about the objective. So many times what happens, we become the victim of this trap of going for technology, going for a particular officer or those kind of things. And we forget the objective. This happens very frequently in government organizations, including my parent organization. When we start talking of technologies, we start talking of methodologies rather than the objective.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:29:35]):

What for we are doing. So this clear focus on objective gave me and my team the these right inputs at right time where we have to be firm and where we have to be flexible. I’ll tell you two, three examples mean shortly. The number one is starting from the Sara, the story of Sara, I should say that today is the main hub or the central point of the Three quarters, which was not. And we got struck with the government of Delhi in getting the land and permission to work on that. And because this land belonged to transport department, government of Delhi, and there were some clash of interest between projects being done by NCT and project supposed to be done by transport department. And finally this got cleared with the intervention of honorable Supreme Court. And we could convince government of Delhi then why if particular scheme where both the projects can be done simultaneously and that will the interest of everybody, that will be the win-win situation.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:31:03]):

Similarly, a few locations where we got stuck with the railways, Indian railways, and then we tried to find out solutions where probably we can work together. One particular case where there is planning of constructing a metro line in merit. By moment of up. And we had this idea of RRTS almost on the similar alignment and merit is not that big. A city where, which can have two such a heavy transport systems rail based working parallel. So there was lot of discussion and government of UP was not will to decide how to go about it. And there were vested interest me in various project authorities who probably thought that that would be the right solution. Then we came out with a solution where we said that both the projects should be subsumed and we could prove it to the government of UP that with the technology today and with the right planning, we can subdue both the systems and we can save about INR 6,000 crores of public cash checker on long-term basis and providing seamless integration between metro and RRTS.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:32:37]):

So win-win situation for everybody. So what I’m saying at various juncture during the journey of this the story of RRTS means we had situations where we had problems. Similarly, in some cases they are the Make in India provisions and there were issues with the local vendors versus vendors who were participating in the tenders invited by the NCRTC. And there were issues between multilateral funding agencies and the requirement of provisions of Make in India. So there were issues where we could sort out by discussion, by bringing out our ideas and see why we are going on a particular path and how we can do multimodal integration sorry making India and simultaneously we can have the state of the art technology induction in the system. So very complicated situation where we had to pass through. I’m not talking of Covid, which again was a serious issue and we had a situation when our supply lines from Europe or supply line formation countries got seriously missed. There was serious problems in moving the material, moving the equipment. But we could, by changing the method logic or by changing the way the particular project was to be done as sub-project was to be done, or how the, by changing the sequence of various activities, we could fit in the final thing, and we could do the project center.

Jaspal Singh ([01:34:22]):

That’s amazing. I mean, the lesson learned for me is like, stick to your objectives. Don’t move your objective or don’t move the goalpost. You can change the way here and there. Be a little bit flexible, but never change your objectives. So, because the moment you start changing your goalpost or objective, then the project will dom. So, and that’s what you, you share with your example.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:34:46]):

I can give you a very simple parallel to that of a football or a hockey. I had been hockey player during my school days. If the striker who is having the ball, whether it is a hockey or football, if he is moving towards the goalpost of the opposite party, and at some point you know that that particular striker will not able to pass the defenders of the other side, he has to give a pass. There’s no point that he should keep on trying. And build the whole effort, not reaching the goalpost. You give the pass to your partner, the other attackers on the other side and do the goal rather than the same person with the rigid mindset, not with the teamwork, doing the same, reaching the same objective.

Jaspal Singh ([01:35:41]):

No, I love that point.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:35:42]):

Can probably very easily explain how we work on this.

Jaspal Singh ([01:35:47]):

I love your point. Like, you pass on ball to somebody else, but you have to hit the goal. So that’s it’s non-negotiable. So you cannot change the goalpost. You have to hit the goal, but okay. You can pass the ball to some other player. I love your point. And I think that’s a success mantra to deliver such a big infrastructure project now. So you have like now I would say three decades or four decades of experience in rail sector, and you have seen the big changes in the industry. So we call it as digitalization of rail sector. We see a lot of agencies are using cloud computing, artificial intelligence, big data, 5G networks. So a lot of new innovations happening. How do you see the rail sector will evolve in next 10 year and how you’re preparing RapidX to adopt these changes? Because I know you must be already planning how the organization will survive and thrive in next hundreds years. So what are the plan you’re doing for next 10 year that the organization will adopt these technologies?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:36:46]):

So broadly, we, we are heavily dependent on technology. Whether it is project implementation or the planning for operation and maintenance of the project, which has already been commissioned. We are doing BIM, which is a state of the art technology. Very few projects across the world are using BIM to that extent, to what we do. Everything is on BIM. Every facility we are creating then we are finalizing the as built models of the BIM. We are, whatever information is getting collected in these models, we are transferring it to integrated asset management system. Now, such a comprehensive asset management system has never been used. Not only in our country with across the world, very few projects even in Europe or America or in Asia, who have done this kind of comprehensive transfer of data from BIM to system. Otherwise that be two functions like any other project or any ERP.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:38:03]):

So again technology driven tools, the, the technologies which are being used in the railway system, as I was mentioning, the hybrid ERTM Lever 3, which is not even being implemented in Europe as of today. This is a futuristic technology that one, a LT backbone. So Europe is waiting to see how NCRTC will be running the trains on such system. And very soon you will find in next six months or few years, there’ll be some more courageous organizations like NCRTC will take this decision in Europe and they’ll go on ETS Level 2 even. And then hybrid level three for data signaling systems. Because we know some of the projects which should be happening in next few years in Europe and whether it is a track, whether it is other technologies in terms of rigid category like category. Also, we are going to create examples for other across the world to follow us in terms of high-speed rigid category systems. So very interesting things we are doing, and we are making the whole system future ready, or rather I should say future proof so that for next few decades, there’s no problem to the system. Nothing becomes obsolete and we can face very easily without much replacements. Not, not much obstacles. The RRT system in NCR of India will continue without much challenges in terms of technology.

 

Jaspal Singh ([01:39:42]):

I love your point. Like actually Europe, like they will find courage to learn from Delhi now, which is happening, and this is actually my last question because everybody in the whole world is now saying that this is essentially for India. Now, this is a time for India where India should emerge as a big country and like a progressive country place. How do you see India in 2035 and how RapidX will become a catalyst for revolutionize the regional urban transport in India? How you see, because like you have a vision where you see the vision for India as well in next 10 year.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:40:21]):

So if you if you see in last 10-20 years what happened in India today, we have the busiest airports of the world in India.

Jaspal Singh ([01:40:33]):

Yeah.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:40:33]):

The biggest and busiest means we never thought that international airports like Delhi, Ahmedabad, Chennai, Mumbai will be much busier than many other international airports, which are famous for their busy schedules. In the few decades that we talk of today, we have the train, the cars which are similar as you can see in Asia or European developed world also. We’ve got phones, we have got communication lines, we have cheap data with us, we have got 5G, 4G, everything. Many countries don’t have those kind of telecommunications. So a anywhere you see the roads, the highways which are being constructed, area expressway, these are at par with the development and the technology in terms of means whether you see outside and I discussed the now railway, the induction of technology and railways is coming through metro projects, the bullet train project and rapid rail system, which we are doing.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:41:46]):

This is a factor which was neglected till now the intercity travel with the commissioning of Delhi-Meerut, Delhi-Alwar and Delhi-Panipat. These threes in next few years, the way intercity commit will happen in India. And that replication of similar in other metropolitans, whether it’s Bangalore area or Pune-Mumbai or Bangalore, Chenai. Second area is there many areas or cities, which is also on the radar. So many things which are which will happen on, on the basis of what happens in NCR of India. You’ll see the way commuter trains will change and they will bring in lot of ease of accessibility, ease of doing business, ease of leaving, and this how it is going to change the total paradigm in terms of people staying outside city, coming to city only for economic activity by this kind of trains.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:42:57]):

And what happened in Europe since last 50 years, or in some cities of America, only few cities in America, but primarily in Europe, that people stay outside and they commute. Similar things are going to happen in India making the you see the low cost housing. Hmm. They, if somebody has to construct a house in Delhi, it’s almost next to impossible. real estate is so expensive, but if you can travel 40-50 kilometers in half an hour outside Delhi and you can live there, then you can live in a good place, a good house, and seamlessly you can travel, which a lot of comfort now, the whole paradigm is going to change the cities which are now more populated, where the infrastructure, providing infrastructure to is very difficult to the extent of being unmanageable. All this will become much easier. The cost of providing infrastructure per capita will go down. So many things will happen with this kind of system coming into being.

Jaspal Singh ([01:44:10]):

Yeah, I agree with you. It’s it’ll create a lot more opportunity. Even we can’t have options right now. It’ll open up a lot of commercial, residential and affordable housing will be possible because people can travel within half an hour. And I was thinking like sometime it take more time to travel within Delhi, it take one hour or two hours to just travel 10 kilometers. So now you can travel 50 kilometer within half an hour. So it’ll open up.

Thank you so much, sir. For your time and sharing your knowledge. You know, we end this podcast with the rapid fire question round just to understand more of your personal side. So if you’re ready, I’ll start with that round.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:44:45]):

Yeah, please go ahead.

Jaspal Singh ([01:44:47]):

Okay. So my first question is, if you were not in the rail or transportation sector, what other profession you would’ve selected?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:44:56]):

So, I’m an extrovert person. I would’ve probably gone for police

Jaspal Singh ([01:45:04]):

Police.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:45:05]):

But what happens, see I got this offer of railways at a very early age, means I were not even eligible for civil services.

Jaspal Singh ([01:45:14]):

So you just enter into that area. Love so much and you never thought to get out

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:45:19]):

Absolutely not. Absolutely

Jaspal Singh ([01:45:20]):

I was thinking you will say the hockey player, because you mentioned that you love hockey too,

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:45:26]):

So that too, that is something like that. I never thought as full-time thing. Hockey was never full-time.

 

Jaspal Singh ([01:45:33]):

Never full-time. So police, I mean, both are social service. Both are serving to public. Now, my second question is, which is your favorite city in the world and why?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:45:42]):

Oh, so means little difficult, but I, what I’ll say, not one, but there are two which I’ll keep at the top. So first one is Vadodara, I spent a good time of my life. I started my career from there. Means after my marriage, I went there. I had two kids, both from same city. So that is choice number one. Otherwise, also city is excellent. Nice wipes and a little bad to rice kind of city.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:46:18]):

Otherwise, if you see on the other, number two, if I’ll keep is Barcelona. Barcelona is also, I like the city. I’ve been many times there. So it is a full package. So, and there’s a beach that otherwise the weather is good. There are many beaches, in fact around 5,000 kilometers north, 5,000 kilometers south. And you get all kind of cuisine means authentic cuisines are all across the world. They’re not to say about Indian cuisine. You get everything. So means full package. Full package, absolutely historical city, well laid out. The city layout is very good. The roads are well maintained. The, especially there, there, there are some features of the city layout, which I like a lot, especially the road crossings. And then greenery within the city. A beautiful city. Beautiful city, because I always like it.

Jaspal Singh ([01:47:21]):

Yeah,  both cities are beautiful. I’ve been to Vadodara in past and Barcelona, I was with you a couple of months back, so it’s, we see both the city, it’s really nice.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:47:31]):

Third was, every time I get a chance to visit Barcelona, I never lose that chance

Jaspal Singh ([01:47:35]):

So next time I’ll remember anything we do in Barcelona, we’ll definitely send you invite.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:47:40]):

Absolutely, I’ll be more than happy to come.

Jaspal Singh ([01:47:42]):

Great. Now my third question is, which is your favorite book?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:47:48]):

Book?

Jaspal Singh ([01:47:50]):

You want to give any other recommendation to people?

 

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:47:54]):

If you see then Gita is the one book, which is very close to my heart. I’m a Karam Yogi and this is something which helps me to remain on that path.

Jaspal Singh ([01:48:08]):

That’s amazing. Karam Yogi, just define people here, it means somebody who believe in hard work, somebody who believe in integrity and, and just doing your work and leave rest to the less, to the almighty or, or superpower. Great, I think that there is a lot of leadership lesson in that book.

And my fourth question is, which one thing do you wish you should have learned early in life?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:48:31]):

Swimming.

Jaspal Singh ([01:48:32]):

Swimming.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:48:34]):

I should have learned early

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:48:36]):

So I’m not able to enjoy many things which I could have had I learned it early.

Jaspal Singh ([01:48:42]):

It’s very funny because I’m actually learning swimming now with my kids, and I have the same feeling. I should have learned it early. It’s difficult now, but I’m trying.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:48:53]):

Yeah.

Jaspal Singh ([01:48:54]):

This is my last question, sir. If you can change one thing in life, what would it be?

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:49:01]):

I don’t think, I have anything which I would like to change. I’m happy contented. So I don’t think I have even one thing which I would like to change.

Jaspal Singh ([01:49:13]):

Changing the life, you know, you wouldn’t believe.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:49:15]):

So I’m fully happy and satisfied. I present way of life or the present life, I should say.

 

Jaspal Singh ([01:49:22]):

You know, most of the people on this podcast, that’s the answer they give. They don’t want to change anything. They like, they, they enjoyed whatever is their journey so far. They are enjoying what they’re doing. And I feel that’s the real symbol or sign of somebody who’s really happy and doing meaningful work. So great to hear that point.

Thank you so much, Sir. I really enjoyed our discussion and your insight. I love the conversation. I mean, I learned personally a lot of lesson from your experience, so it, it’s great to have this discussion with you.

Vinay Kumar Singh ([01:49:54]):

Thank you. I also loved the discussion and conversation we had in last few sessions, two sessions.  Thank you for it.

Jaspal Singh ([01:50:00]):

Thank you for listening to this podcast. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to give us a five star rating as it’ll help us to spread our message. If you have any feedback or suggestion for this podcast, please feel free to reach out at info at the info @ mobility-innovator.com. I’ll look forward to see you next time. Thank you.