Mobility Innovators

Debra A. Johnson ([00:00:00]):

Digital transformation starts with modernizing infrastructure and data services so that they could be flexible and scalable. I mean, that’s just what it is. It’s not only for today’s needs, but for wherever we go in the future, not knowing what tomorrow brings, right? So some of the initiatives that RTDs undertaken, and let me just be clear. In some instances we have been behind, hence going back to our back to basics. So it’s critically important that we recognize that, but we want to build upon that because I looked at the agency when I came in, a lot of my colleagues would agree that we were data rich, but information poor, right? So how are we using that data for the betterment of how we’re delivering transit services? So with that as a backdrop here at the agency, we have a project underway to deliver a next generation application for real-time data. And it is really what we’re noting as RTDs Traveler Information System. So it provides data to the public, if I could speak, display signs and applications. And our current application, like I said, is information rich for data ports.

Jaspal Singh ([00:01:20]):

Welcome to the Mobility Innovators Podcast.

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Mobility Innovator Podcast.

I’m your host, Jaspal Singh Mobility Innovator podcast. Invite key innovator in the transportation and logistic sector to share their experience and feature forecast. In this episode, we’ll be discussing the transformation journey of transportation in Denver.

Prior to this, she served as Deputy CEO of Long Beach Transit from 2014 to 2019. Prior to that, she held executive positions at the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority (LA Metro), the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency (SFMTA) and Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA). She worked in all corners of the country and has long experience in the sector. In 2019, she was named as one of 10 “Women Who Move the Nation.”

I’m so happy to welcome Debra Johnson, General Manager and Chief Executive Officer of RTD Denver. Now it’s time to listen and learn.

Hello Debra. I’m so happy to have you on the podcast. Thank you for taking time off of your busy schedule. I know there is a lot going on in Denver, so thank you for your time.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:02:29]):

My pleasure. I’m glad to be here with you.

Jaspal Singh ([00:02:32]):

So I actually want to kickstart our discussion with your professional journey, and I must say it’s really impressive career 33 year in transit and you work with all the key agencies like BART, SFMTA, LA Metro Long Beach Transit, and now RTD Denver, which is again one of the amazing agency. So I want to ask you, what was your first memory of public transit, how you survived 33 year in transit and how did it influence your career path? Because surviving for so long, working in different agencies, what is your secret sauce?

And by the way, I really love the line on your LinkedIn profile, which say servant leader and person in people business.

 

Debra A. Johnson ([00:03:13]):

Yeah. So thank you so much. I appreciate the question and thank you for the compliment and supportive words. First and foremost, I’m a firm believer that public transportation is really the great societal equalizer. And what I mean by that is we weren’t all born on a level playing field. In order to take advantage of opportunities, we first must get to those opportunities and that’s where public transportation comes in. I often think about the opportunities that have been afforded to me. I grew up in central California. Using public transportation when I was coming of age was a sense of freedom. My friends and I could get together and go to different places, but also it enabled me to go to a different school. It enabled me to have access to be in the advanced placement program or the gifted and talented education program. And so as I look at public transportation, it really is about people.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:04:06]):

And when I talk about the great societal equalizer and you talk about my handle on LinkedIn, being a servant leader and a person in the people business, that’s really what it is all about. We’re all imperfectly perfect. And public transportation. When you look at it through the history of American society, we’ve been in the forefront in reference to the civil rights movement. It has a place in history. And as I stand in my truth of being a woman, but more importantly being a black woman living in America, I understand how important it is relative to where we are and especially with what we’re dealing with today.

Jaspal Singh ([00:04:43]):

That’s amazing. And I really curious to learn any special lesson you learned during your journey, your path to grow in the career, any risk you’ve taken or any step you’ve taken? Like how young professional can learn from your profile.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:04:59]):

Stand in your truth and be who you are authentically. What I mean by that is don’t shy away. Sit at the table, let your voice be heard. I think it’s very important because we never know who was watching. And I can recall being in a place where I was the only woman in the room and assumptions are made about what my role was and how did she get there. And I can remember speaking to my dad when I had moved from the west coast to the east coast when I was working in Washington DC and while this may sound sort of odd, I knew the intent that he had behind it. I was dealing with an issue in the workplace whereby I just felt isolated being like the only one being the only woman, being a young person. And at the risk of being boastful, being smart and engaging and being intentional and purposeful.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:05:49]):

And he said, baby, I don’t have any sons, but I’m going to tell you need to be a man. And what he was meaning is be bold, take control of the room, say what it is that you know possess and what you feel. And I think looking back at that hindsight is 2020 and that’s exactly what it is. You can’t shy away and be a wallflower, especially when you’re in those spaces because oftentimes I think about representation, it matters. You don’t know who is watching you and you are paving the way from others. Just as you said in the formation of that question, what would I say to young professionals? Because somebody most definitely is watching the steps that I take and I want to ensure that they can follow and set Footprints.

Jaspal Singh ([00:06:29]):

Amazing. I love all the points you mentioned. It’s okay to be imperfect. Perfect. Everybody’s imperfectly perfect. So everybody’s unique. You need to make sure your voice is heard. And actually this podcast is global, so I’m really looking forward. Your voice is heard not only in us but across the globe. And people get inspired from your journey. And I really love your dad’s line saying you need to be a man. It’s basically mean. You need to make sure you get your space. And I have a young daughter, so this is a message I’m going to pass to her. So now you are heading this regional transportation district, RTD, Denver. And like I mentioned, this is a global podcast, so I don’t know many people know about what RTD is, but it’s actually serving 3 million people in 40 municipality. And I can imagine you have six and a half hour long board meeting because all these board members coming from different municipality, you have got a lot of work. So can you share a little bit more about the agency and what role it play in Denver area?

Debra A. Johnson ([00:07:29]):

Yeah, so thank you so much. What’s critically important to keep in mind about RTD is that it is the only multimodal transit agency in the entire state of Colorado. So while there may be other transit agencies within the state, they’re typically in the mountain towns. And when I say mountain towns, we’re talking about where people are going to ski and things of the like. And so as we think about metropolitan Denver in and of itself, half of the population of the state lives in the metro area. And so while we talk about Denver and to the point that you just raised, there’s 40 municipalities within eight counties, but the bulk of those individuals live within Denver. So it’s critically important as you think about the transportation network that has been built that connects people to and grow. Recognizing this as an international podcast, the Denver International Airport is the sixth busiest airport in the entire world.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:08:24]):

And so when you think about RTD in and of itself, we are operating a commuter rail line, which is one of our most productive modes of transport going from Denver Union Station, which is an intermodal transportation hub to an international airport. So we are providing connectivity for international travelers, business professionals as well as visitors alike. And it is really the lifeblood I believe, of the metro area, ensuring that we are bringing full circle business opportunities. There’s a lot of companies that have moved here by virtue of the access points because we’re in the central part of the United States, you can get to the west coast within two hours, you can get to the southern portions of the country, IE Texas, you can travel abroad and get to Europe relatively quickly, a lot faster than you could from the west coast. So looking at it from that perspective, it is critical to the economic vibrancy of the area in and of itself.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:09:36]):

And then more to the point as we talk about the localized contributions, every person that resides within the city and county of Denver, they live within a mile of a transit stop. And while that level of access certainly varies in other municipalities and regions in the area, we at RTD remain committed to providing that excellent service and furthering our vision of being the trusted leader in mobility among the communities. And so I think looking through that lens showcases the vitality of our network and the critical elements that we bring to the region as a whole and to the state of Colorado and the country.

Jaspal Singh ([00:10:16]):

That’s amazing and I tell people always any city you go, the first touch point is the transportation in that city. And if you can move from airport to the downtown easily, you will always remember because that’s play a key role for the economic creation of that city. Now you moved to RTT Denver during the pandemic time from Long Beach Transit. I don’t know why you did that because it was not the time to move, but it was like middle of the pandemic and RTD Denver was hit even badly as everybody was working from home and even the system was suffering from many legacy issues. So it was a bold decision I would say. Now I want to ask you now, you completed five year and actually you got renewal of your role. So congratulations of that. Why did you decide to take that role and how did you feel after first five year in this job?

Debra A. Johnson ([00:11:07]):

Well, thank you for that question. I often get that and I am not one that sit idly by. I am motivated, inspired, and inspired by challenges and literally and figuratively, you cannot spell the word challenge without the word change. And I am a firm believer that you have to lean in. So when I heard about this opportunity, I thought to myself, why not? I had been in varying roles throughout the course of my career where I’ve been in leadership positions, but I was always in support of someone else at Long Beach Transit. I served as the deputy CEO when I was at LA Metro, I served as the chief operations Officer. Prior to that I was in San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency and I served as the number two at that agency as well. And for our stint, I was the interim CEO after Nat Ford left the agency who was now a Jacksonville Transportation Authority.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:12:08]):

So I thought, hmm, I’m always the bridesmaid and not the bride. Why can’t I lead my own transit agency? And it was a change for the better. I knew I had something to offer. I don’t shy away from challenges. And then more to the point in reference to the whole notion about representation matters. When you look at least in the US there was a study done by the Pew Research Center and this states back to 2017, but as it relates to the most transit reliant demographic in the United States is single mothers of color. But oftentimes you don’t see individuals that fit that profile leading transit agencies. And so as I think about my trajectory and my journey, I believe it’s incumbent upon me to be that voice from the bus stop into the boardroom. And so bringing a different perspective labeled or not labeled, I should say harnessed in my interpersonal skills, lean into the moment to figure out what might be best, especially when we are in the midst of the pandemic with such unknown variables and not knowing where tomorrow would lend itself, but recognizing that there was a challenge and I thought, why not grab the bull by the horns and go for it. And I basically entered the recruitment race and was the victor.

Jaspal Singh ([00:13:28]):

That’s amazing. And I really love what you said, the challenge cannot spell without change. So change is a part of the challenge, but it’s important. And any lesson have you learned navigating RTD through that pandemic recovery? Because it was not easy when like you said, you don’t even know what is coming tomorrow. What was your biggest lesson during that period?

Debra A. Johnson ([00:13:50]):

Well, I think for me what was a big lesson is recognizing that we’re all imperfectly perfect. We were dealing with so much. And what I mean by that is on an international spectrum, because all of us were going through the pandemic, we were dealing with a lot of different issues while I came to work every day, it was important for me recognizing that folks that are on the front lines, you cannot operate a commuter rail con remotely. You cannot drive a bus remotely. And it was important for me to show up and show out. And what I mean by that is supporting the people on the front lines because they were the individuals that were taking great risk, moving key individuals that were working during that time, people in the healthcare field, people working at the pharmacies and the grocery stores. And I grossed that from the sense that we all were coming into the office, our workplaces to our operating divisions with so much that may have been burdening us and recognizing that being amongst other people that we’re still in the workplace and not doing it solely from a remote location that we could rally around and recognize that we’re all individuals and we all have stories we know nothing about.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:15:15]):

Let’s extend grace to one another because as we were dealing with civil unrest within the United States, we had the insurrection at the United States Capitol, we had the aftermath of the verdict of the George Floyd murder.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:15:32]):

And I remember stepping into that space just feeling overwhelmed. And I showcase to the individuals with whom I have the privilege of leading that I too am a human being and I have feeling. And all of these different skills that are plaguing society don’t escape me as well. And so we’re in this together and we can be vulnerable, but we can also make the decision when we have the opportunity to be right or be kind, let’s choose kindness. And for me, I think if anything, I have been able to engage with the individuals that comprise this agency and it has given me a great sense of joy and the sense that they’re able to see me as a person and not just somebody with a title of whom can’t not relate to what they’re going through on a day-to-day basis.

Jaspal Singh ([00:16:24]):

That’s an amazing leadership lesson because you need to be shoulder to shoulder with your staff. You can’t just be away if they are on the ground. So that’s a big morale boost for them because when they say you’re walking along with them, not front or not behind it create a big morale boost. And I love the line you said, we all are human. It doesn’t matter what title, what position we hold, but end of the day, we all are our same human being. No, I really love after taking over as a CEO role, you actually now created a strategic plan in 2021 for five year and it has some long-term strategy and really love the plan for a couple of reasons. One in the strategic plan you mentioned about back to basic state of good report, you’re not talking about all the fancy stuff, but let’s go back to the drawing board and work on the basics.

Jaspal Singh ([00:17:16]):

You talk about people power or recruitment to focus on people. You talk about welcoming transit environment because that’s how people should feel that transit is welcoming for them. And then the customer and community connection, I think that’s also very important. People should feel their connect. So these all are important point I want, I would like to love, I want to learn a little bit more about RTD strategic plan and can you share how are you driving dog nation and sum of action? Because when you come as a new CEO, you have an old team. So how do you inspire people to follow the vision you have?

Debra A. Johnson ([00:17:55]):

Right? So thank you so much for that question. When I came into the organization, I had a transition plan and while I pride myself on being well-versed in public transport, the management of and the delivery of, I did not know the culture here at the regional transportation district.

 

Debra A. Johnson ([00:18:13]):

And that’s incredibly important because as we know with culture, it’s either created with intentionality or it’s by happenstance. And what I learned here is that it was by happenstance whether good, bad or indifferent. And so as we talk about our mission, what is it that we do each and every day? It seems that people had different viewpoints on that. And basically what was our vision collectively where do we aspire to be? And in doing informational interviews, be it with elected officials throughout the region, be it with my board to whom I report, it’s a directly elected board as well as the people that make up the agency and stakeholders and union members. I clearly saw that we weren’t working toward that same north star.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:19:04]):

And that’s where the notion of having a strategic plan that resonated with all different entities would be fundamental. And with the support of my leadership team at the time as well as the board, we collectively decided on a strategic plan. And with that strategic plan, we have currently still four priorities as it relates to community value, customer excellence, financial success, people power or employee ownership I should say. And people power stems from that. So with that as the backdrop, recognizing the four initiatives that you just spoke of, what we’ve done intentionally through the course of data engagements that we’ve had, not only with employees but with customers doing intercepts within our transit system, is honing in on what means the most to people that are working for the system and those that are utilizing the system. So when we talk about the importance of getting back to basics here at RTD, prior to Debra Johnson being thought of, we had undertaken this vast capital investment program and now we’re at a point where we have to ensure that we’re making good on those investments.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:20:30]):

And while it’s not sexy, we have to put ourselves in a place where we can capitalize on the investment that taxpayers made for years to come. And so focusing on the back to basics and asset renewal is key for the next 30 years. And more to the point, even when you look internally to the organization, it’s like what processes and procedures do we have in place? So as we have people that will leave the organization through attrition that we have established protocols so people know what to do and you’re not losing that institutional knowledge. And quite naturally when we talk about people power, we are people moving people.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:21:14]):

We are a labor-intensive organization. No matter if you talk about machine learning or artificial intelligence, there’s still that human element because as long as there’s people on the planet, as we saw via COVID, that we as human beings crave that interaction. And so we have to ensure that we are investing in our people. And when you recruit people, you want to make sure that they stay. So it’s having those training programs and ensuring that we’re providing them with the resources so they can be successful so they in turn can contribute to the organization so they can see how they fit in with our mission of making lives better through connections regardless of where you are in the organization, if you’re responsible for ensuring that that bus pulls off the lot at its designated time to hit that first time point, that’s critical to the employee, or excuse me, critical to the customer experience because if that bus doesn’t leave on time, there’s residual impacts.

 

Debra A. Johnson ([00:22:13]):

And then if we talk about a welcoming transit environment just by virtue of where we were with the pandemic and all the societal ills that have plagued us with houselessness and people suffering from addiction and mental health and things, a lot of folks during the time sought refuge in public rights away. We want to ensure that people feel comfortable in the system. So basically it’s working with our partnership. It was growing out our regional transportation district’s police department, so we could leverage the investments that have been made relative to our stations, but more importantly, looking through the lens of people in the sense of making sure that our TP basically we’re focusing on the wellbeing of the general populace through the lens of, hey, we may need mental health care clinicians. And I’m happy to say that RTD was the first agency in the country that basically had that conder type model moving forward because we can’t arrest ourselves out of just societal problems as a whole because we’re interwoven in the fabrics of the communities that we serve.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:23:23]):

And quite naturally as we talk about the customer and community connections, that gets back to what I just said relative to people moving people we’re in perfectly perfect. There’s people utilizing the system and the operative word in what we do is public. We don’t pick and choose our customers because we’re all part of the public as we move forward and recognizing that people in this organization have a role in all of that and they can see where they fit in that large jigsaw puzzle regardless of the shape and size, that box top cover will still come to fruition. And it’s getting that understanding with everybody to come to the point of understanding what continuous improvement is and doing that plan do act check part of it all.

Jaspal Singh ([00:24:05]):

Amazing. I can say all the strategic plan by heart. Each and every word of it because you are actually implementing it. And that clearly show, and the point you mentioned about the public transport is the business of people moving people you need to take care of your customer, you need to take care of your staff because ultimately they are the one who are providing a better service. And if the customer get a better service, they will come back and bring more people on the job. And I would say it’s not only RTDs like the mental health correspond job you’re saying beside that, you’re also doing a lot of other interesting stuff, which I read during my research. One is about this first-mile free program. It’s very innovative and creative where the RTD is creating this first and last mile connectivity and will provide a kind of free travel for two station for next two year in 2026 and 2027. So I’m very interested to understand what is this whole program all about and why do you think first and last mile connectivity is very important?

Debra A. Johnson ([00:25:05]):

Well, let me start with the latter part of the question first and then I’ll go back to the other two questions you poses. So keeping in mind that we all know people who have the greatest access to transit

Debra A. Johnson ([00:25:18]):

Tend to utilize it more and individuals who have to travel more than half a mile by foot or using a mobility device are much less likely to use it. And so we have to be intentional and purposeful when we talk about ensuring that populations that may shy away from the notion of public transport, especially in the US because so many people are just so inmate with their automobiles. We have to create the opportunity where it’s like second nature and you’re not thinking about it. So getting back to the question you posed about this program in and of itself, I will say that RTD can’t take sole credit because a couple of years ago, by virtue of what I talked about with our strategic planning initiatives and things of where I was engaging with stakeholders, learn that there were some opportunities within the greater communities in which we served, and it was really outside of Denver, more so that the access to public transport wasn’t where it should be in the sense of people being so in love with their cars.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:26:40]):

And so we developed what we call the partnership program. It’s whereby RTD set aside some monies and did a call for projects relative to the communities within our greater service area. We have like 15 districts within RTD. And so we have these sub regions and have representation from staff and stakeholders and we call them subregional councils working with them. We talked about our strategic plan because that’s the foundational piece of it all, is that we are going to do a call for projects whereby we could have some innovative and creative community connector type initiatives that would feed into the greater transit network that RTD operates. And so keeping in mind this program that you just referenced was created organically within the community and prioritized by the planners within that sub region. And so while I said the programs are not necessarily operated by RTD, they really compliment the connectivity to our transit network and they don’t impede or compete with what we’re doing for service delivery.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:27:52]):

I say they complement what we’re doing. And so simply put RTD provides the funding that allows for the 40 municipalities within these eight counties along with transit management associations and transit management organizations to create those mobility solutions that makes sense in those localities because it’s not a cookie cutter approach. What might work well in Denver, may not work well in LA, may not work well in San Francisco, may not work well in Boston. And the same is within the Denver metro area. So the first mile free was pitched to RTD, and so as you indicated, we’ll be funding it as a pilot and there’s criteria we want to ensure it is an alignment with our strategic priority that is serving equity populations and that there’s the potential for greater transit utilization. So if it’s successful, we anticipate that others will propose similar projects and the other parts of our two thousand four hundred and two thousand three hundred forty five square mile service area.

Jaspal Singh ([00:28:56]):

That’s amazing. Actually this was one of the point I learned about that RTD has this partnership program and provide funding to these agencies and it’s quite interesting because you are actually co-creating with them. You are empowering these smaller group to co-create and meeting their requirement. And like you said, it’s not always each municipality in each area has a similar requirement. Somebody need more on demand, somebody need this last mile connectivity, somebody has some other fixed line service requirements. So creating those empowerment.

So congratulations. I mean really interesting. This partnership program is really innovative and creative I would say because that’s sometimes the problem is you try to impose the same model everywhere and it doesn’t work. So you need to be understanding what people and let them empower to do that. Now many transit agencies are facing this financial challenge. You talk about the financial cliff, I meet a lot of CEOs and their biggest worry is like how will they overcome the financial cliff in coming month or coming years? I would say RTD is lucky in that sense. You have large part of the revenue coming from sales tax and other sources. But I read that RTD is already looking some other sources and I always tell people the best time to worry about something is when you don’t need to worry about it. So it’s good to see RTD is already looking to diversify resources. So do you want to share why you are looking to do it now and what are the option explored by RTD so far?

Debra A. Johnson ([00:30:25]):

Yeah, so thank you for that question. I want to ensure that all of your listeners know that we too do have some belt tightening to do as we move forward because as we clearly know, most public transportation is subsidized in some form or fashion. And while I could say that RTD is on firm footing, we’re not looking to expand our current service as relates now just due to the fact that we need to do some belt tightening. And you indicated that the primary revenue sources that we have at this agency sells in use tax that constitutes anywhere from 70 to 75% of our revenue stream. And then 20% give or take from grants mainly federal assistance and then farebox, which is only 5%. And so what is intriguing about where we sit, we don’t get any state funding. I mean there’s been some introduction of some sources within the past couple of years because we’ve been talking about this.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:31:37]):

We have our zero fare for youth program and that’s something that’s really dear to my heart in the sense that we want to invest in the younger generation so we can expose them to public transport. I am a firm believer that basically it enables them to get to school. If in fact you have somebody on the lower economic rung of financial ladder, their parents or guardians don’t have to decide am I going to send my child to school or am I’m going to have to decide to feed them. And so we take that out of the equation and more to the point as well, you’re developing a good environmental citizen as you move forward with the exception of the zero Fair for Youth program where we partnered with the state and they provided us funding for about 18 months for that program, which I think as I said is a good return on investment because you’re creating that transit customer for life. We’re currently focused on living within our means, maintaining assets in a state of good repair. And as you know, we expanded rapidly in the past perhaps too rapidly and it’s critical to ensure that we have sufficient funding for

Debra A. Johnson ([00:32:49]):

Operations and ongoing maintenance. So with that as a backdrop, just last year around this time, we went to the ballot in 2024 to seek voter approval to retain revenues that would otherwise be returned to the region, which would significantly impair the agency’s ability to deliver service. So the way it works in the state, it’s called tabor, the Taxpayer Bill of Rights, and it was quantify that you could only receive a certain amount of those taxes and when it reached that threshold, those monies could be returned to the voters. Well, the voters at the ballot said, no, you could keep those monies. And so that was something in and of itself, it didn’t necessarily give us additional funding, but it ensured that we retained the funding that we had and at this juncture we’re open to all options, particularly additional funding and partnership with the state of Colorado.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:33:43]):

I’ve had conversations having lived in different states within the country whereby I look at it through the lens perhaps property tax would be something that would be helpful because you have individuals that are already vested in the community by virtue of owning property and things the like. And it’s something that the state of Colorado in recent years haven’t really embraced because when I think about the cells in use tax, some of the most vulnerable populations when they go and buy something, those monies are being contributed to RTD and they’re already trying to utilize the system with less. And so open to ideas as we look at various partnerships as we move forward. And we have done some of those things as I indicated with the state of Colorado with the varying departments and enterprises that consists within the state.

Jaspal Singh ([00:34:38]):

That’s great. And like you mentioned in the beginning, public transport is freedom and it’s allow people to move around. And this youth, in fact, I was in China a couple of weeks back and there also they have a lot of program youth are free, kids are free, university students are free, and the old population above 60 is free. The military personnels are free. And when I asked those people, I said, how do you fund? And they said Public transport is public service.

Jaspal Singh ([00:35:05]):

PTOs have a public service contract with the city and city need to pay us to run these services. So every year or every three year they have a public service contract where the city have to sanction the fund. But happy to share some of these models because I think this is required.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:35:20]):

I think that’s great and thank you for sharing that. I’ve always been of the mindset like if you were in a state of duress and you needed to call law enforcement, you needed to call the police. You’re not having to pay before you call them or if you needed some kind of medical services that needed an ambulance dispatch, you’re not paying before that comes or your house is on fire. And so in light of what you said, public transportation is a public service and I believe it should be treated the same way. That’ll take a lot of stakeholder and engagement to get people there because we know funds are short. But as we talk about where we are, transportation being interwoven into the fabrics of the communities that we serve, we have to think about land use and economic development and how critical public transport is to all of that.

Jaspal Singh ([00:36:08]):

Yeah, that’s very important. No, happy to share more detail about that and happy to support from UITP side, how can we have more vocal voice? Now, one key challenge transit agency are facing also is the lower ridership and it’s also because of the safety, like you mentioned, the societal issue. And there are these problem in the society, addiction and homelessness and a lot of people don’t feel safe, but RTD has introduced a new safety plan and I already noticed some positive results. I was reading some report and I saw that you have this RTD transit watch app too where you can actually report things. So quite innovative. So can you share some of the initiative taken by RTD to recover ridership and how do you see agencies can adjust to the new reality? Because maybe now we need to forget about 2019 and before 2019 this is the current number and now we need to grow from here.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:37:02]):

You hit the nail on the head. I mean prior to the pandemic, when we look at data and we look at trend lines, don’t we normally look at them in three year intervals? So why are we now going back as we’re fastly approaching 2026 still talking about what happened in 2019? That’s just absurd from the vantage point of transit utilization and the word that we all use is ridership. I consider that to be an output. We’re doing various things to entice people to want to use transit services. And what we yield from that is greater usage, which we coin as ridership. So that clearly is an output. I’m more focused on providing quality transit services, ensuring customer comfort, their personal security as you indicated, and delivering service when and where people most need it.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:37:54]):

But that’s only the big picture as you talked about. How are we going to recoup the greater transit utilization of the ridership? There are some important factors that I want to point out, and I’ve been talking about this a lot as of late with members of the Colorado state legislator business members and things alike because it’s incredibly important to recognize where we’re situated here in the metropolitan Denver area that the Denver metro area has experienced the slowest return to office rate in the country. There was a recent Axios article that if my memory serves me correctly highlighted, the Denver lags behind most if not all major cities with a 40% decline in office visits between July, 2019 and July of 2025. And so this place is Denver behind big cities in the country such as like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Boston, and Washington DC and those cities have experienced 30 to 35% decline. But here we’re talking about the city in the Rocky Mountain West that’s experienced greater than a 40% decline. And so just to put this in greater perspective, like New York City actually experienced a 1.3% decline.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:39:17]):

And we see that in the city’s transit utilization because quite naturally when you think about New York City in comparison to a Denver, you see that difference. But then another factor in all of this is that currently 30 to 40% of buildings in downtown Denver either vacant or significantly underutilized. So when you think about the old adage, especially here in the States about we’re only good as our last rush hour because people are commuting into the central business district and commuting out now those people that are living in those outlying areas, because like I said, here we are in Denver and then we have Denver is one city and county and then you have 39 others,

Debra A. Johnson ([00:40:02]):

What does that mean for us? And so further to the point, the agency transportation network was built on a hub and spoke system to get people into the downtown area. Now it’s an opportunity to rethink where and when transit services are being delivered. One thing that we’ve clearly seen with the advent of COVID is that okay, people may not be utilizing it to go to work, but we do want to engage in a lot of social activities. And here in the Denver area, we have a lot of different professional sports teams and most of the venues are downtown. We have the Denver Nuggets basketball, we’re in football season. The Broncos people are utilizing our system just Monday night to see the game against the Cincinnati Eagle. We have a baseball team, not that they’re doing anything well at this point, but people are still coming downtown to converge. And so we’re capitalizing on those opportunities relative to those as I call them, activity centers and ensuring that we are leveraging our service delivery models to capture that demographic going forward because it’s not just about working. But what I’ll do with this, since I’ve been on this question a lot, you got me going because it’s top of mind. We are launching our comprehensive operational analysis

Debra A. Johnson ([00:41:28]):

To determine how best to provide transit within the vast region. And of course we want to maximize on those taxpayer dollars and invest in the system as appropriate. So we’ll be getting that underway. We’re looking to retain a consultant the latter part of this year so we can be raring to go in the beginning of 2026. And quite naturally that will be an extensive process considering that I coined it comprehensive as we move forward. So we’ll have data from that as we can use that as the foundation as we look at how we deliver services in the region.

 

Jaspal Singh ([00:42:06]):

That’s very important. And you rightly mentioned many other cases, you don’t even look to three year back and now in case of transit, why you want to go back five year? It was a different world, a different reality. The technology has a big change. And the office space, I mean I would say my wife doesn’t go to office every day, so I feel happy because I feel somebody’s at home when I’m traveling. But that’s a new reality. We need to understand that the people, and that’s what a lot of agencies tell me that the riders are back, but the ridership pattern is not back because earlier they were taking, let’s say 10 trip or 12 trip in a week. Now they only take three or four trip in a week. So it can never be the same number. So your people are back in the system, but probably they are using less what they were using earlier. So it’s the same challenge now.

AI is a buzzword right now. Everybody talk about ai, everybody’s talk about digitalization, technology, artificial intelligence, machine learning, what are RTDs current priority for digital transformation, how you’re using real, because you mentioned about you want to do this comprehensive operational analysis and data, you use word data many times. So I want to understand how you’re using real time data, contactless payment AI for scheduling. What are the initiative RTDs doing?

Debra A. Johnson ([00:43:18]):

So you hit the nail on the head, as we all know. I mean digital transformation starts with modernizing infrastructure and data services so that they could be flexible and scalable. I mean, that’s just what it is. It’s not only for today’s needs, but for wherever we go in the future, not knowing what tomorrow brings. So some of the initiatives that RTDs undertaken, and let me just be clear. In some instances we have been behind, hence going back to our back to basics. So it’s critically important that we recognize that, but we want to build upon that because I looked at the agency when I came in, a lot of my colleagues would agree that we were data rich but information poor. So how are we using that data for the betterment of how we’re delivering transit services? So with that as a backdrop here at the agency, we have a project underway to deliver a next generation application for real-time data. And it is really what we’re noting is RTDs traveler information system. So it provides data to the public, if I could speak, display signs and applications. And our current application, like I said, is information rich, the data poor, it’s clunky, it’s limited in its capability to deliver the information services for a modern transit organization. And so while the work has just gotten underway, we are anticipating improvements in the area in the next nine to 12 months.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:44:47]):

You mentioned contactless payment, and this is what I mean, we’ve been a little bit behind the eight ball on this, but nonetheless, we are there now. So since 2022, we have been replacing our electronic fare collection system on our buses and our platforms, which of course most would know as a prerequisite to accepting contactless payments. And so in the coming months we’ll begin testing the open payment concept and work towards a proof of concept. So testing go as planned. We were talking about November, but it ebbs and flows already. Today is October 1st, so

Debra A. Johnson ([00:45:25]):

We plan to launch open and contactless payment in quarter four, and I use quarter four. Like I said, it’s all about the testing. If everything goes well, it’ll be November, but if not, it’ll be December. But it’ll most definitely be before the end of this year and that will help. Getting back to the last question you and I were discussing, as we talk about transit utilization and people utilizing the system, we want to take all of that thought out of hopping on board because there’s that fear, that trepidation and the angst, I don’t know what to do. People are going to be looking at me. How do I board this fuss? How do I get on this train? How do I use this clunky machine? And so now with your Apple wallet or Google Pay or credit cards, you could just hop on. So we’re excited about that.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:46:15]):

And then what I’ll round out is our AI for scheduling quite naturally. That’s critical as we know in transit service delivery. So we’re working on building what I would say would be a solid unified data foundation. And so the inputs that go into machine learning and artificial intelligent tools must be based upon a good strategy and solid data. So what we’re trying to do right now is ensuring that any AI tool RTD uses includes the human in the loop. And I learned this from my chief information and technology officer. This is the my bailiwick, but that’s critically important as we talk about the human in the loop, we know the data is biased and that we need to have human-based decisions to train and correct data that will allow more effective and precise results for our customers in the system. So along with the infrastructure modernization and building on the AI infrastructure with trusted data pipelines, we can provide more insights, but we could provide, we have more insights. I’m sorry to put more things into action. And as anyone who uses AI in the marketplace knows it’ll be a force multiplier for the agency and to enhance the customer experience.

Jaspal Singh ([00:47:32]):

Oh, for sure, for sure. No, I mean you mentioned you were a little behind, but now you’re catching up fast and that’s also sometime help because the legacy also you are adopting a legacy system and changing its a problem. And that’s what I see a lot of US transit agencies two decade back or I would say 20 years back, they were ahead, but then the technology changed and they couldn’t be able to move that fast the way technology changed. But now you have opportunity to leapfrog back and bringing that open loop payment system. In fact, I was in Paris a few months back and they don’t have open loop yet, and we were like, man, it’s so complicated to use that machine and to understand,

Debra A. Johnson ([00:48:11]):

Oh, I was there last summer and I thought the same thing I was trying to, and I was just like, okay. But yeah, and we’re transit professionals and if it’s hard for us, what do you think

Jaspal Singh ([00:48:21]):

About the customer, the other people, right? I agree and we want to try out, but for other people it’ll be so complicated. And I really love your one line of the data rich information, poor / Flexible, and scalable. It’s amazing. I’m going to use these one liner. Many places we’re sharing, we’re sharing information. And now I want to understand a little bit about your leadership philosophy. Like you mentioned, you are the first woman to lead RTD in 50 year of IT history and many places you were the first woman in the room. You are always very passionate about promoting women. So we’d love to learn more about your leadership style, what kind of leader you are, and what has been your most challenging decision as a GM of RTD so far? Because like you said, you’ve come during pandemic time, you need to take some tough decision. What has been some of the tough decisions so far?

Debra A. Johnson ([00:49:13]):

There’s been quite a few. So as it relates to me in this place, if anything, I bring a humanistic approach to what it is that we’re doing. Going back, once again, I’m a person in the people business and collectively my teammates and I are people moving people. And so my leadership style is one of being participatory. I find great joy in being a public servant. As I said, I’m a person in the people business. And for me it’s really about leading by example. I want to model the behavior that I expect

Debra A. Johnson ([00:49:49]):

And I’ll deviate for a quick moment and talk about our strategic plan. Because in that strategic plan, we have values. And while people are coming from different walks of life and they’re converging upon one space, we have to be ensure that we are aligned around our values, which are the ideals and beliefs we hold to be true. And so that is very paramount for me as we talk about our values here at RTD, it’s about passion, it’s about trustworthiness, ownership, collaboration, diversity. And when I say diversity, it’s not just in people, it’s about the thought and experience in the sense if somebody puts forward an idea of a thought that I can embrace that diverse way of thinking and not just shut it down and say no. So that’s critically important to me when I talk about model, the behavior that I’d like to see.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:50:41]):

And then I do my best to listen more than I speak. And that’s not easy. I mean, you can hear all these adages. Yeah, I have two ears and one mouth, so I should listen more. But in some instances, we as human beings feel like we’re always formulating a rebuttal when somebody’s speaking as opposed to just stepping back and really taking in what people are saying. So that’s part of my participatory leadership. And then what I really pride myself on is fostering a work environment where people want to do their ultimate best. They shouldn’t shy away from speaking up in the room for fear that somebody will say, oh, that’s not a good idea. No, that gets back to the value that I talked about, that we need to have people that are trustworthy, that have respect for one another. Because first you have to have respect for self before you can have respect for somebody else. And by taking those six values that we have holistically and ensuring that we are showcasing those in such a way where people can clearly see their contributors, that leads to my philosophy of being that participatory leader.

Jaspal Singh ([00:51:50]):

Amazing. I really love, and I can vouch for that because many times I met you, even first time I met you, you were always so welcoming. Even if you don’t know people, you were so welcoming and you were asking people like, okay, how can you help and how can you do stuff? And listening to people, I personally experienced that you never shut down anybody. You were always listening to ideas and experience that. So thank you for sharing. And one of the key things, I know that you’re a big supporter of a women in leadership position, and I also love that because in UITP, we also have this philosophy of making sure the women get equal participation. So all our panel session, we make sure they are equal participation. And I’m lucky in my team, I have a lot of women colleague and I really enjoy working with them because the idea perspective they bring is really nice. So how you want to inspire the future leaders, the female future leader, what message you want to tell them?

Debra A. Johnson ([00:52:53]):

I would say for future women leaders or future leaders as a whole, show up and be your own true self. Don’t basically shrink yourself to make others feel big because we all have something to bring to the table. And oftentimes within these big conflicts organizations, we may question ourselves just by virtue of having that imposter syndrome. We’re never enough. Oftentimes we’re our own worst critics, and when we take the opportunity just to engage with individuals, we all have a story of which we know nothing about. We all have little scary thoughts in our heads, and if we give each other the opportunity to be vulnerable with one another, we can see that we can come together and the bridges in those thought gaps for the betterment of whatever our initiatives are and whatever projects and deliverables are. Because I have a teachable point of view. I say with my team, bad news doesn’t get better with time.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:54:01]):

And so basically what I mean by that, if you’re struggling with something, make that known because there’ll be people that’ll want to rally around and help you. When we talk about women, oftentimes we have been reared in such a way. Basically we’re talking about younger women, but generationally speaking, I was born in the sixties, and so it was like, oh, you can do this and these little girls should be over here and do this, that and the other. That goes out the window. We should all be confident, competent individuals that can contribute and let’s not stereotype what some body should do by prejudging them based upon our own biases as we move forward. And so it’s showcasing that I am here. I am up for the task. I was hired for a job. There were minimum qualifications to which I’ve met, and so I am deserving of the place in the room in which I’m sitting. That’s what I would impart.

Jaspal Singh ([00:55:04]):

Amazing. No, I fully agree with that. And like you mentioned, we should not shrink ourselves. And I see, especially my female colleagues and other in a job posting, they want to match everything before applying, and they want to make sure my wife also, sometime I discuss, she like, oh, I want to have this checklist. They’re like, come on, you can apply and let other persons judge, but they shrink themselves. They feel like, no, no, no. I need to complete everything before taking any action.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:55:33]):

You’re absolutely right. Looking at a job description, and if there are minimum qualifications, we as women, there’s 10 of them, we got to meet all 10 and then have some extra. And I don’t mean to sound disparaging, but men on the flip side may meet three and it’s like, oh, this job is perfect for me, right?

Jaspal Singh ([00:55:48]):

I do the same. So I been like, okay, let’s try. But I can see they want to make sure it has to be perfect and don’t take a risk. And that’s how the society, we need to create more sticking and we need to encourage that. Now, this is my last question. You started in 2021, and let’s say you continue till 2035. Then at that time, what kind of vision you have for RTD Denver. When you want to look back, let’s say in 15 year, and you say, what has RTD Denver has accomplished, especially the autonomous mobility is growing and we will have some more competition. So how do you see the future of RTD Denver in next 15 years?

Debra A. Johnson ([00:56:35]):

Wow. It’s really odd to think that 2035 is only 10 years away, right?

Jaspal Singh ([00:56:40]):

Yeah, that’s true.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:56:41]):

It’s crazy. But first and foremost, as it relates to the vision for RTD, I am one person. And so if anything, RTD and I didn’t talk about this before, was created by virtue of the Colorado State legislature back in 1969. And so I think that RTDs future will be reflective of how much value local and state leaders place in providing mobility options to the people of the region. It serves, as we were talking earlier about our funding streams and things of the, if people are investing in the transportation network and capitalizing on the taxpayer dollars that have made this system what it is today, then it’s going to be for not in 2035, because it’s just not sustainable without that collective partnership. So I think that’s viable piece in the discussion about what I see relative to the future of RTD. So with that as the backdrop, I certainly believe that RTD will continue to be the backbone of transit across this region, and I would say in the state as well.

Debra A. Johnson ([00:57:53]):

Because Denver is the biggest metropolitan area within the state of Colorado. It is critically important to the economic vitality of the state. And so if the agency continues to partner with communities to provide the maximum amount of service when and where it best serves customers and within its people power and fiscal constraints will be good. As for autonomous mobility, I can say I don’t see it as being competition, but whether one more tool to further enhance access and mobility across the regions, especially when you get to the outlying areas that perhaps aren’t as densely populated. Because as I said at the outset of our conversation today, transit is and always will be about access to opportunity regardless of where we sit, where we are on that economic rung of that ladder, it really is about moving people to and froM and ensuring that they can take advantage of opportunities, otherwise they may be isolated from. So simply put in reference to the future, I see it as being a critical component. While it may be shaped differently from what I know to be in 2025, I still think that the RTD network will be the linchpin in all the economic development in and around the Denver metro region.

Jaspal Singh ([00:59:20]):

Amazing. And I really love the point you said autonomous mobility is just another tool to enhance public transport. It’s not competition. It cannot replace because the public transport is a backbone and it will continue to remain as a backbone. But probably autonomous mobility can help to serve some of the transit desert we say, or outskirt area and can provide a better service.

Thank you so much, Debra. I really learned a lot personally from this conversation, so thank you for your time and sharing all this knowledge. And we generally end this episode with a rapid fire round. We ask some personal question because now we know you as a leader, but now I want to know you as a person. So if you’re ready, we will start with our quick question.

Debra A. Johnson ([01:00:02]):

Okay. Go.

Jaspal Singh ([01:00:04]):

Okay. So now you’re working in transit for 33 years, but let’s say if you’re not in transit space, what other profession you would’ve selected?

Debra A. Johnson ([01:00:11]):

I think now I would want to be a motivational speaker.

Jaspal Singh ([01:00:15]):

Okay. Amazing. So that’s a second part I would say. You can be amazing. The kind of experience you got and the kind of personality you are. Always cheerful. Which is your favorite city in the world and why?

Debra A. Johnson ([01:00:33]):

I’ll say Toronto and I say Toronto because the diversity of people, culture, the food. It’s like the hubbub of a true international city.

Jaspal Singh ([01:00:43]):

You should then come and visit. I do. I love visiting. Okay. Which is your favorite book?

Debra A. Johnson ([01:00:52]):

I just read the Let Theory by Mel Robins. So I’ll say that’s my current favorite book.

Jaspal Singh ([01:00:58]):

Okay. That’s nice. I wrote down, that’s my to read list. Now. What one thing do you wish you should have learned early in life?

Debra A. Johnson ([01:01:07]):

That I am enough.

Jaspal Singh ([01:01:09]):

I am enough. Amazing. You can be, are already a motivational speaker, I would say. Now this is my last question. If you can change one thing in life, what would it be?

 Debra A. Johnson ([01:01:22]):

To get rid of all the isms. They shouldn’t exist. Racism, sexism, all of that. I would just get away from all the isms. We could just be who we are and be embraced by each and every one of the other individuals on this planet.

Jaspal Singh ([01:01:37]):

We are imperfectly Perfect. So we have enough? No, that’s amazing.

Thank you so much, Debra. Really great insight and really loved this conversation and wish you good luck with all your key initiative.

Debra A. Johnson ([01:01:49]):

Thank you so much. I really appreciate spending time with you, being able to share some nuggets and glean from you as well as we had this conversation. So wishing you continued success.

Jaspal Singh ([01:02:01]):

Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast. If you like this episode, please don’t forget to give us a five star rating as it’ll help us spread our message. If you have any feedback or suggestion for this podcast, please feel to reach out to us@infomobilityinnovators.com. I look forward to see you next time. Take care.